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#85 2016-09-07 05:18:19

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Key Largo, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,722
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

Bloke wrote #300965:

The new site repo is available and was updated just a few hours ago. By all means get involved.

Grunt :(

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#86 2016-09-07 06:17:40

bici
Member
From: vancouver
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,952
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

i am working with v3 of the new 4.6.0 beta. Combined two of hcgtv’s TXP Themes and all seems fine. I found the UI fairly straightforward and didn’t come across any issues.


…. texted postive

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#87 2016-09-07 09:13:03

gaekwad
Server grease monkey
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 3,899
GitHub

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

philwareham wrote #301112:

Let’s prepare this thing for shipping now.

Start your engines!

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#88 2016-09-07 09:18:32

philwareham
Core designer
From: Haslemere, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,553
Website GitHub Twitter

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

gaekwad wrote #301139:

Start your engines!

Yep, nearly ready!!

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#89 2016-09-07 11:41:58

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

Bloke wrote #301086:

Done. See if that’s any better.

This is much better so long as the “Sort & Display” remains un-expandable/un-collapsible.

candyman wrote #301078:

First thing I noticed (and that it seems strange to me) is the behavior of the Write panel: why the Sort and display panel is always fixed?

jakob wrote #301080:

To me this seems entirely logical: it’s the one thing that absolutely has to be filled out.

I’ve expressed my thought on this in the past, so forgive me for the repeating myself. I agree with Candyman. I do understand the reasoning for keeping it open, and it’s excellent reasoning. However, I still advocate for allowing it to be collapsible. In no particular order:

  1. It creates a consistent interface
  2. Having it open to ensure people have properly filled in the settings is only applicable for new articles. Granted is probably the primary use case for the write panel, but even so it is only one use case.
  3. I advocate for Textpattern’s original mantra of “just write”. For me, that means, as much as possible, creating a distraction free UI for writing. Collapsing all, including sort & display moves even closer. (Personally, I’d like to try a versions with a slide out or modal or popup for all the extra settings.)
  4. We should move away from requiring the Sort and Display. It makes sense if Textpattern were only a content publishing system, but it if is a content management system, we should allow the freedom to create articles that are outside of sections.
  5. If we are going to require certain settings, it should be possible with the new js foundation a warning, or even pop up with the warning and the ability to fill in the settings in the pop up itself. Which makes some sense if the reasoning is these are special settings that should be treated differently from other settings.

edit

By the by – Please do not construe my comments to be in reference to something I believe needs to happen prior to a 4.6 release. It’s feedback going forward. And really at the heart of it is 1) is there a way to make status and sectional optional and 2) if they are unique and necessary, can we handle them differently than keeping them visible all the time? Maybe that means all preferences become a slide out, non-negotiable preferences a modal, or a warning – “you didn’t set this” pops up.. Just my preference among the various views :)

That input aside, excellent work all!

Last edited by maverick (2016-09-07 11:50:16)

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#90 2016-09-07 13:06:43

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 10,742
Website GitHub

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

maverick wrote #301144:

we should allow the freedom to create articles that are outside of sections.

I’ve given this some thought in the past, but it breaks so many content paradigms baked into Txp (convention over configuration being one of them) that it’s a major upheaval for little measurable benefit. Content has to live somewhere.

Granted, it’d be nice to be able to have chunks of content that could benefit from Textile / markup but are not full articles in themselves. Like Forms, but available to content authors not just designers, that you could “include” when needed.

But would they be useful? Dunno. Proper custom fields will help, but they’re still attached to the article, which has to live somewhere to be displayed in a logical location to the site visitor. Custom content types would be better, imo.

If we are going to require certain settings…

I feel that since all articles must have a Section and a publication Status, those fields should ultimately be moved out of the side panel and put in the main flow. Then the side panel becomes entirely optional and could be hidden/popped out on demand as you mentioned, leaving more screen real estate for content.

When we make the blocks sortable (drag-drop), I’d like to visit that notion if possible.


The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.

Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp

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#91 2016-09-07 13:19:35

phiw13
Plugin Author
From: Japan
Registered: 2004-02-27
Posts: 2,697
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

maverick wrote #301144:

2) if they are unique and necessary, can we handle them differently than keeping them visible all the time? Maybe that means all preferences become a slide out, non-negotiable preferences a modal, or a warning – “you didn’t set this” pops up.. Just my preference among the various views :)

While re-reading through the various posts in this thread earlier today, I had the idea that Article Status and Sections should be moved out of the sidebar, and into the main content editing block, probably below the main textarea; that leaves the two categories widgets. Those could certainly be inside a collapsible block.

I’m no fan of needlessly adding modal pop up warning. Those are very disturbing.

And the whole sidebar could be itself a show/hide thingie for deep immersive writing.

Hmm I see Bloke had the same idea

:-)


Where is that emoji for a solar powered submarine when you need it ?

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#92 2016-09-07 13:27:56

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

phiw13 wrote #301152:

I’m no fan of needlessly adding modal pop up warning. Those are very disturbing.

For full disclosure, neither am I. I prefer they be used very judiciously. I was merely trying to prime the well of creative solutions :)

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#93 2016-09-07 13:50:12

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

Bloke wrote #301149:

I’ve given this some thought in the past, but it breaks so many content paradigms baked into Txp (convention over configuration being one of them) that it’s a major upheaval for little measurable benefit.

From a conceptual viewpoint, I agree, but I believe it most people would easily adapted. As for the technical upheaval this could result in, clearly you have a better understanding than I could.

Content has to live somewhere.

Yes and no. Conceptually and practically, it does have to live somewhere. If not in the database itself, at least with a reference to its location in the database. However, it does not have to be published.

Ergo my comment on paradigm – content publishing system vs content management system.

While all content need be accessible, it need not be published, especially via an article. We already acknowledge that with links, images, and files.

It is only be because we (out of convention) presume all main items are articles and all articles will be published that we create a necessity for section and status. It’s a publishing paradigm, not a content paradigm.

As much as the publishing paradigm resonates with me – I actually like the publishing status work flow and I appreciate using sections for publishing – I still would like to see our convention evolve from a CPS (content publishing system) to a true CMS (content management system).

Which, yes, probably does involve the things you mentioned like custom fields and custom content types.

Granted, it’d be nice to be able to have chunks of content that could benefit from Textile / markup but are not full articles in themselves. Like Forms, but available to content authors not just designers, that you could “include” when needed.

But would they be useful? Dunno. Proper custom fields will help, but they’re still attached to the article, which has to live somewhere to be displayed in a logical location to the site visitor. Custom content types would be better, imo.

an easy off-the-top of the head example of a useful include: associating a company address.

Suppose you have a hundred employees and five locations. You want to put in the address of the five locations once.

In one section you want to put up employee profiles. You want to associate a given address to the several employees who work at that address.

You also wish to have a section which profiles each location.

Having an entry that lives outside of a section that holds a single address and can then be associated with multiple other entries is extremely useful.

Are there ways to make it work? Sure, but this would be a natural, easy to use, out of the box method.

And as noted, as custom fields are attached to specific articles, so they cannot properly serve this function.

Anyhow. I realize that there is not now, nor in the foreseeable future a desire for this. But I figure it cannot hurt (too much) to speak up now and again. :) edit then again, considering Pete’s comment below, perhaps it can hurt.

Last edited by maverick (2016-09-07 13:59:31)

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#94 2016-09-07 13:50:21

gaekwad
Server grease monkey
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 3,899
GitHub

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

Forgive me if I’m jumping off on the wrong angle, here. Actually, forgive me and correct me. And there’s a risk I’ll end up being completely wrong and looking like a tool, but here goes.

The admin-side UI is a bunch of markup and styling that controls what is read from (and written to) a database, and various files behind the scenes.

It’s a theme and, by its nature, the source code for this theme is available. There’s nothing that I can think of that’s preventing anyone with a grasp of HTML & CSS from forking the theme, tweaking a few bits to their liking, and then using that in place of Hive (or NeutraHiveBlueFlat).

There’s nothing stopping anyone making a totally new admin theme, either from scratch or with one of the myriad CSS frameworks that exist these days. Whether I, you, or Donald Bloody Swain is 100% happy with the layout/scaffolding/etc of Hive is not important, because not everyone’s going to agree, and Hive won’t ever be perfect.

Textgarden, the former home of some Textpattern themes, expired and went pop – it’s now a generic Wordpress review-o-matic website. Bert stepped up and ported some front-side themes from Bootstrap, but the admin-side themes are generally pretty hard-to-find.

You don’t have to use Hive. Maybe it’s time (after 4.6.0 is out, of course) for us as a community to think about alternative admin-side themes. Please don’t break our designer; we only have one, he’s busy and his patience is finite.

Last edited by gaekwad (2016-09-07 13:52:57)

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#95 2016-09-07 13:51:50

philwareham
Core designer
From: Haslemere, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,553
Website GitHub Twitter

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

The status and section in main column are also something I’ve considered. Let’s try it out in 4.7 development cycle.

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#96 2016-09-07 13:58:22

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.6.0 beta 3 released

gaekwad wrote #301160:

You don’t have to use Hive. . . . . Please don’t break our designer; we only have one, he’s busy and his patience is finite.

You are correct Pete. There has been a lot of discussion and back and forth. When one is crazy busy and everyone has an idea how you can do something better, it can get to you. I hope Phil is not discouraged by the back and forth. I’m sure that is not what anyone intends. I think we all view it as a community investment trying to allow community discussion create the best version of Txp. If it has become a stress point for Phil, I will be the first to apologize.

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