What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

resplence · 2007-04-25 06:56:22

As a designer, I value the respect and preservation of my ideas. When I started working with web design, I was scared of how little control we have over the final product, as opposed to print design — and I’m not talking about browsers.

In print, when I finish a file, that’s it. It is finished; closed and sealed. If the client wants any changes, he has to ask me for it, and I get to charge accordingly (depending on the contract). And he knows this is how it works.

In web design, all the client needs to do is edit the source code or mess around in the CMS. More often than not this breaks the layout or his customizations just plain nullify the design (“I think big bold red text will really emphasize this point”). In the case that he has no patience for that and calls me asking for further adjustments, he gets frustrated for:

1. Not being delivered a product exactly the way he wanted (even though it was agreed upon prior to closing the deal);
2. Believing he should not have to pay for the extra changes since it was my fault for “messing up” the first time.

It can also be very frustrating trying to explain to a complete non-techie client how to update the site on his own, add or edit sections, etc., even when using the “simple systems” such as TextPattern or Wordpress. I’m used to creating identity and branding manuals, but creating user manuals for that end is exhausting.

I’ve also heard of a funny case where the client found out that the CMS his site runs on is free, and thinks the designer ripped him off by charging for the site.

So, I’d like to hear how do you deal with that, and if you have any bizarre/funny/retarded case to share.

jm · 2007-04-25 07:38:57

In my experience, clients love Textpattern because it is easy to use, once they get the hang of it. My clients are designers and developers though. If your client isn’t tech or design savvy, give them a restricted user account so creating and organizing content is what they do. After all, that is what they paid you for.

As far as educating your client, creating screencasts and/or simple user guides is a must. Video training tends to be more effective in my experience.

I’ve also heard of a funny case where the client found out that the CMS his site runs on is free, and thinks the designer ripped him off by charging for the site.

Ah, but it takes knowledge, skills, time, and effort to create the site. Using the client’s reasoning, Linux web hosting should be free too!

nardo · 2007-04-25 11:52:03

jm – what do u use for screencasts?

lee · 2007-04-25 12:12:30

I’ve found that giving clients restricted access means letting them only update existing content or adding a blog entry. But this is never enough for them, they want to be able to add new sections, pages and even add item to the site navigation without learning TP tags or ever seeing a byte of code. IMO TP isn’t the CMS to use if a non tech client wants this level of control. Drupal could be worth a look, non tech clients can add the TP equivalent of sections, pages etc. without any coding (tags), just by using the site admin.

resplence · 2007-04-25 15:27:39

lee wrote:

I’ve found that giving clients restricted access means letting them only update existing content or adding a blog entry. But this is never enough for them, they want to be able to add new sections, pages and even add item to the site navigation without learning TP tags or ever seeing a byte of code.

That is exactly my experience, too. And in my opinion, it’s their right to do so. For me, building a web site for a client should be akin to “teaching him to fish”, but without all the dirty work. Some will argue that you simply can’t, or shouldn’t, run a website without learning HTML, but for a “regular person”, that, and learning the intricacies of a CMS, is simply cumbersome. But I still have to find the CMS that will allow me just the right degree of control and freedom.

Last edited by resplence (2007-04-25 15:28:47)

RedFox · 2007-04-25 17:40:58

Almost every client of mine ONLY wants to change text and images in articles or wants to make new articles with text and images … and that’s really easy with TXP. However I did make a small online tutorial (in Dutch) in which clients learn and can practice how to use TXP in that way and even can learn how to modify very simple ‘forms’. For a new navigation button or something like that, they have to come to me … :)

If there is a client who wants more than that, don’t take the job! It’s asking for really big trouble if your skills are of a designer and not of programmer and even then! I know … :(

Last edited by RedFox (2007-04-25 17:56:51)

jm · 2007-04-25 23:12:01

nardo wrote:

jm – what do u use for screencasts?

When I was using Windows, Macromedia Captivate was excellent. Wink was also great for quick screencasts (and it’s free).

Now that I’m on a Mac, I haven’t done many. I used the last free version of iShowU (climb the URL tree of the /downloads section – you’ll find it), but it was extremely alpha. Until a free Mac screencast app comes out, I think I’ll just fire up Wink in Windows or take more screenshots.

zem · 2007-04-26 01:12:02

But this is never enough for them, they want to be able to add new sections, pages and even add item to the site navigation without learning TP tags or ever seeing a byte of code. IMO TP isn’t the CMS to use if a non tech client wants this level of control. Drupal could be worth a look, non tech clients can add the TP equivalent of sections, pages etc. without any coding (tags), just by using the site admin.

What’s stopping you from doing this with Textpattern? Non-technical users ought to be able to add sections without touching templates or understanding tags, at least in theory. What’s different about the practice?

resplence · 2007-04-26 01:38:59

zem wrote:

Non-technical users ought to be able to add sections without touching templates or understanding tags, at least in theory.

How? I never even thought that was possible with TXP.

Last edited by resplence (2007-04-26 01:39:47)

zem · 2007-04-26 01:41:51

presentation/sections, type the section name, click Create.

If necessary, change the options and select a different template and stylesheet.

resplence · 2007-04-26 01:44:21

Oh, that. Obvious, yeah. I was thinking about something else, nevermind me, guys.

lee · 2007-04-26 07:13:16

Lee wrote:

But this is never enough for them, they want to be able to add new sections, pages and even add item to the site navigation without learning TP tags or ever seeing a byte of code. IMO TP isn’t the CMS to use if a non tech client wants this level of control. Drupal could be worth a look, non tech clients can add the TP equivalent of sections, pages etc. without any coding (tags), just by using the site admin.

Zem wrote:

What’s stopping you from doing this with Textpattern? Non-technical users ought to be able to add sections without touching templates or understanding tags, at least in theory. What’s different about the practice?

Adding a section in admin is one thing, getting it to display on the front end of a site is another – the if_section’s, forms etc still need to be setup in pages. And then the section might need adding to the website navigation, it goes on…

I love TP for letting me quickly develop/change a site and for the way it lets lets non tech clients (most clients imo) update existing content. For clients that want add pages, change the site navigation etc. don’t think TP is for them.

zem · 2007-04-27 01:01:56

the if_section’s, forms etc still need to be setup in pages

We’d love to improve Textpattern so those things aren’t necessary. Adding a new section should be just a case of creating it and choosing the correct template.

Thing is, we don’t know much detail about how designers build complex sites with Textpattern, and our questions about that in the past have gone unanswered. So: what’s stopping you from building templates that are reusable? Why exactly are you hard-coding section names into templates? What could we do to make that unnecessary?

FireFusion · 2007-04-27 06:15:26

zem wrote:

Thing is, we don’t know much detail about how designers build complex sites with Textpattern, and our questions about that in the past have gone unanswered. So: what’s stopping you from building templates that are reusable? Why exactly are you hard-coding section names into templates?

I’ll answer your question Zem.

A classic example is a site I’m building at the moment, perhaps it is a bit more complex than normal site. I’ve cut it down to get across the basic idea.

default

<h2><txp:title /></h2>
<txp:body />
</div>
<div id="content_secondary">
<txp:if_section name=" ,reference,sitemap"><txp:else /><h3><txp:section link="1" title="1" /></h3></txp:if_section>
<txp:output_form form="nav_secondary" />
<txp:excerpt />

nav_secondary

<txp:if_section name="events">
<ul id="nav_sub">
<txp:output_form form="mn_events" />
</ul>
</txp:if_section>
<txp:if_section name="books">
<ul id="nav_sub">
<txp:output_form form="mn_books" />
</ul>
</txp:if_section>
...

mn_books

<li><txp:article_custom category="basic_books" form="li_a_item" sort="Posted asc" limit="1" />
<txp:if_article_category name="basic_books"><ul><txp:article_custom sort="(custom_2+0)" offset="1" category="basic_books" form="li_sub_nav" /></ul></txp:if_article_category></li>
<li><txp:article_custom category="intermediate_books" form="li_a_item" sort="Posted asc" limit="1" />
<txp:if_article_category name="intermediate_books"><ul><txp:article_custom sort="(custom_2+0)" offset="1" category="intermediate_books" form="li_sub_nav" /></ul></txp:if_article_category></li>
<li><txp:article_custom category="advanced_books" form="li_a_item" sort="Posted asc" limit="1" /><txp:if_article_category name="advenced_books"><ul><txp:article_custom sort="(custom_2+0)" offset="1" category="advnced_books" form="li_sub_nav" /></ul></txp:if_article_category></li>

Last edited by FireFusion (2007-04-27 06:15:50)

maniqui · 2007-04-27 08:20:36

Clients should know that they can’t touch and modify each and every content/piece/chunk-of-code of a website without breaking it partially or totally.
Of course, they want to modify it, add new content, maybe a new section. It’s their site, they want to feel they really own it, and if the webmaster vanishes into other dimension, they won’t need to call 911 nor need to request a new web-developer to create a new site from scratch.

We all know that a well-coded site with web-standards should be, ideally, easily readable and comprehensible by any other web-developer that may pick-up and continue our work.
Also, a CMS like TxP shoud ideally give a total control over the content and the presentation of the site, and in fact, TxP really give us (developers) a nearly-100% control over those aspects.

So, web-standards and TxP goes hand-in-hand in the taks of making site’s maintenance (that is, updates in content and changes in design, add new functionality, etc) easier and painless.

Then it comes our client (a non-technical user) who wants to move things from here to there, add section, change colors, change sizes, etc. And then, things usually start to break.
HTML is structure, is like an skeleton or a building: you can’t easily add/remove elements to the structure without making minor (in the best case) or major changes.

Yes, they should be able to add a new article and things shouldn’t break at all. But, of course, before they do that, you (developer) have think about the article flow and did some information architecture.

But maybe adding a section isn’t that easy. In the most common case, when you (or your client) create a new section, you want it displayed to the section navigation menu.
In an horizontal menu this could become problematic if you didn’t leave enough room for new sections: an horizontal menu with many sections tends to break design.
Of course, you/client may not want to show the new section in a menu, but just have a section to put new content and make it accessible by other ways.

And also, as a rule that could be applied in most cases, if your client thinks he needs more (many) sections, maybe it’s time to rethink the site architecture.
Adding a new section could be compared to adding a new room to a house, but also, to dividing one room into two spaces (does that idea makes any sense? I leave it there, because it sounds smart and maybe, you can make some conclusions! ;) ).

zem wrote:

We’d love to improve Textpattern so those things aren’t necessary. Adding a new section should be just a case of creating it and choosing the correct template.

Thing is, we don’t know much detail about how designers build complex sites with Textpattern, and our questions about that in the past have gone unanswered.

I must admit that I have developed few sites in my life (but for most of them, I use TxP) and usually, I’m in charge of all the maintenance, so clients never worry about updating/changing/deleting/*breaking* things

Regarding this topic, I think there are at least two ways to think and develop a TxP site (and so, its templates): a developer-centered way and a client-centered way.
I will list some of the issues that are common in each case.

Developer-centered way

use a lot of if_section tags to reduce qty of page templates and forms
use of hard/hand-coded code because developer knows things doesn’t change automagically by just adding a new section.
so, these approach aren’t very flexible if the client wants to take control over some aspects of their site but don’t want to mess with code.

Client non-technical-user way

changes should be transparent for this user: they create a section, they choose a page template, they add some new content and voilà: there go to the front-end and the new section can be accessed through the navigation menu and the new content is there, nicely formatted.
in that case, you should create one (or many, for options and great flexibility) pages templates, so when your client creates a sections they can choose different pages templates: a two_columns_page_template, single_column_page_template, etc.

There you have a simple way for clients to create new sections and let them choose a section layout (page template) and, if you have done a good work in thinking possible different pages templates, they should find one that fits they needs.

So: what’s stopping you from building templates that are reusable? Why exactly are you hard-coding section names into templates? What could we do to make that unnecessary?

About adding a section to a automagically generated section navigation menu, I think TxP lacks of some flexibility.
There could be a way to re-arrange sections sorting and visibility in txp:section_list tag.
This could be managed directly from the Sections tab: there could be some ajaxy-arrows (or maybe a sort-by-number-in-input-field) to re-arrange section order, and then a checkbox to control visibility in the outputted menu (show/hide).

I think those last ideas had been already proposed and discussed previously.

Well, that’s all for now, excuse my english and any lack of sense in writing/ideas. Bye!

Last edited by maniqui (2007-04-27 08:23:23)

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#1 2007-04-25 06:56:22

What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#2 2007-04-25 07:38:57

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#3 2007-04-25 11:52:03

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#4 2007-04-25 12:12:30

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#5 2007-04-25 15:27:39

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#6 2007-04-25 17:40:58

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#7 2007-04-25 23:12:01

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#8 2007-04-26 01:12:02

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#9 2007-04-26 01:38:59

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#10 2007-04-26 01:41:51

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#11 2007-04-26 01:44:21

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#12 2007-04-26 07:13:16

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#13 2007-04-27 01:01:56

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#14 2007-04-27 06:15:26

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

#15 2007-04-27 08:20:36

Re: What does your client think of TXP, and how do you deal with that?

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