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#271 2020-10-24 14:30:18

jakob
Admin
From: Germany
Registered: 2005-01-20
Posts: 3,969
Website

Re: Corona virus

I’m sorry but I’m very wary of this statistical comparison and what “properly” counts as relevant, who’s fiddling the statistics to suit their corporate/political purpose and so on and so forth.

We’re talking people here, not numbers. If you actually know people who have been affected and struggled, people who months later have not recovered but before were perfectly healthy, people old and young who are isolated because others think its irrelevant to them / a scam / a nuisance / an invasion of privacy to wear a face mask or maintain a respectful distance, then the debate about statistics or “what’s true / what’s not true” becomes pretty irrelevant. It’s all fiddling while Rome burns.


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#272 2020-10-24 16:22:31

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 9,832
Website

Re: Corona virus

Absolutely. I’m not disputing the scale of the situation. And there are always, unfortunately, dickheads who refuse to help. I’m simply wary that while the pharma industry and media and politicians are scrambling for a “magic cure” (that may or may not even be viable long term given the nature of the virus that may mutate faster than we can control) for whatever point-scoring/profiteering gains, we’re not doing ourselves any long-term favours by hiding from this behind over-sanitization.

High quality and common sense cleanliness and a bit of distance is fine, along with greater focus on one’s own health and ownership thereof (the social model not medical model of healthcare). That will help minimise the risk to those who are in the demographic for this particular virus, and in fact everyone long-term, without compromising us all later. I’m still amazed how many people go to the bathroom at rest stops like motorway services and just walk out afterwards without washing their hands, or just wave them under the tap and leave.

At the other end of the scale, when everybody is forced to be slathered in lowest common-denominator anti-bacterial gel at every single public space, and has practically zero contact with any otherwise healthy bacteria, at what point do we as a population become anti-bacteria-resistant? i.e. become more susceptible to viruses that are not covid-related simply by not having natural immunity to things that are regularly harmless?

The whole theatrics over tracking people is laughable when people who collect the information don’t know why they’re doing it or how the data is useful. I went to the barbers recently. Each of the 5 stations – independently rented – had a pen and paper alongside it. Two columns on the sheet: name and phone number. Tell me: how is that helpful? There is no way on earth that if someone tests positive the salon/government can use that data to work out who was in the joint around the same time and therefore who might be affected.

Was the person who was in the salon immediately before the positive case there at the same time, waiting for the chair? And for how long? Or did they turn up half an hour earlier/later? And what about the people sitting on the lists that were sat either side of the chair this person sat in? How do they correlate?

The best they can do is hand over the names of everyone present on that day and they’ll all be contacted as potentially affected. As we know from social graphs, that will then have a massive knock-on effect, more strain on resources, more tests, more isolation for no reason, more economic impact, when 97% of those people in there that day could be bypassed if the salon collected the right information and were aware of its purpose to use it responsibly.

The countries that are doing well at controlling cases and keeping a lid on things are those that are switched on to data usage and how to apply it, and are then able to use that data effectively to make sensible policy decisions and public education. Not those that listen to soundbites and shoddily-collected raw numbers, then make decisions without studying the causes (*cough UK cough*).

Last edited by Bloke (2020-10-24 17:38:28)


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#273 2020-10-25 01:28:25

singaz
Member
From: Kyiv, Ukraine
Registered: 2017-03-12
Posts: 143

Re: Corona virus

Außerparlamentarischer Corona Untersuchungsausschuss

https://acu2020.org


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#274 2020-10-25 02:52:34

singaz
Member
From: Kyiv, Ukraine
Registered: 2017-03-12
Posts: 143

Re: Corona virus

WORLD DOCTORS ALLIANCE

An independent non-profit alliance of doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals and staff around the world who have united in the wake of the Covid-19 response chapter to share experiences with a view to ending all lockdowns and related damaging measures and to re-establish universal health determinance of psychological and physical wellbeing for all humanity.
https://worlddoctorsalliance.com


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#275 2020-10-25 05:47:38

colak
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From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 8,349
Website

Re: Corona virus

Two columns on the sheet: name and phone number. Tell me: how is that helpful? There is no way on earth that if someone tests positive the salon/government can use that data to work out who was in the joint around the same time and therefore who might be affected.

We have to do this in our exhibition space. We include:

  • Date
  • Arrival time
  • Departure time
  • Name and Surname
  • Telephone number

We require all who enter the space to wear a mask and we spray their hands with 99.9% alcohol on their arrival.

Admittedly we still have a problem with some idiots who insist on keeping their nose outside the mask, giving the bs excuse that they cannot breath. I normally respond to that but advising them that they should not leave their homes as they are obviously in a very vulnerable group.


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#276 2020-10-25 08:26:13

phiw13
Plugin Author
From: Japan
Registered: 2004-02-27
Posts: 2,168
Website

Re: Corona virus

colak wrote #326553:

  • Departure time
  • Name and Surname
  • Telephone number

Out of curiosity more than anything, do you get real names & tel. numbers ? I remember in late spring in Seoul, after the first infection wave and rules were relaxed, the nightlife scene (and in particular the gay scene) was hit by a couple of clusters which proved very very hard to track as people, did not leave their real names in the register and apparently even muted their phones.


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#277 2020-10-25 17:15:09

jakob
Admin
From: Germany
Registered: 2005-01-20
Posts: 3,969
Website

Re: Corona virus

Apologies for sounding a little forthright above but it’s not been a good few days and my patience has worn thin with talk that sounds (to me) even vaguely like it may be trivialising what is for some people a real and serious situation. I’m not saying any of you meant it, it’s just how I reacted.

I wrote a polite, considered but plain-speaking reply but lost it because I took too long. There’s a lot of distracting talk everywhere but when it comes down to it, what I really wanted to say is with all the govt/corporation/faction-bashing/espousing going on, please don’t lose focus of the simple things we can still all do at little cost or penalty to ourselves that help our fellow beings. It’s not about playing into anyone’s hands, just about respect for others. It helps even when others don’t do the same.


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#278 2020-10-25 17:44:05

colak
Admin
From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 8,349
Website

Re: Corona virus

Your response was very appropriate and it is shared by some of us at least. The situation sucks and instead of trying to fix it, governments are in cahoots with corporations to squeeze what’s left of us even more. C19 is not the cause but just a symptom of our way of life.


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#279 2020-10-25 19:21:59

zero
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2004-04-19
Posts: 1,391
Website

Re: Corona virus

There’s nothing wrong with being forthright, jakob. I think everyone can see that your heart’s in the right place, and it is very important we don’t lose sight of the fact that it is a dangerous virus, especially for the vulnerable. So taking the precautions is indeed something we should all keep doing.

I disagree with you that debates about stats and underlying agendas are irrelevant. The general public needs to know that all is not what it seems. But here on this forum we are not politicians or big influencers so for all practical purposes, those debates are pretty irrelevant. But I think it’s highly likely that all of us here are taking the precautions because we don’t want to harm anyone and those good habits are probably strongly ingrained now and will remain so for a long time to come, just like crossing the road or driving carefully.

Although recent posts about German-led movements to expose the scam side of the pandemic have made me feel much more positive, I haven’t swallowed the line that the pandemic is over althoug I do agree with most other things they are saying. However, it is still a dangerous virus and you are right to remind us of the basic care and respect we should all have for each other. For me personally, it’s been ingrained in my being for a long time (mmm… except towards politicians and the powers-that-be who should know better and have put themselves in positions of loftiness that invite the rest of us to knock them off their perches :)


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#280 2020-10-26 06:50:19

colak
Admin
From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 8,349
Website

Re: Corona virus

zero wrote #326564:

Although recent posts about German-led movements to expose the scam side of the pandemic…

From Naomi Klein, March 16, via the intercept.


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