The direction of Textpattern 5

philwareham · 2012-11-02 18:53:49

I have to admit I too am confused as to the value of serving CSS via XML. Can you enlighten us?

Gocom · 2012-11-02 19:41:19

Phil, I would just ignore this talk like rest of us basically are. I don’t have radar big enough for this and my face already has the palm of my hand printed on it. In short, this whole thing has no value or relevance to us.

As far as serving goes, this suggestion doesn’t mean we would be serving, but storing content, data, in a XML format (in a flat-file XML database) which then would be parsed by the server and served as it is now. We are already using a database – a different type of database. There is no point of us changing to XML files. There is no gain (performance, eh?), it’s just different way of storing content and approach to templating.

Last edited by Gocom (2012-11-02 19:45:01)

Bryon · 2012-11-03 01:47:11

Gocom wrote:
Phil, I would just ignore this talk like rest of us basically are.

Yes, I saw that. The good ol’boys got together and formed themselves a posse in another thread and had themselves a hangin. It’s nice to see that the same small group of four or five people are still here 8 years later acting like 14 y/o kids forming a dodgeball team at recess. Sorry I’m not cool enough to fit into the click. I’ll go off and play in a corner with the other none nepotistic kids like you all have basically asked me and everyone else that is not in your club to do.

Gocom wrote:
There is no point of us changing to XML files. There is no gain (performance, eh?), it’s just different way of storing content and approach to templating.

Exactly Mr. Genius! Had you, or any of your good buddies actually read what I wrote (instead of hanging onto the dreaded thought that someone even mentioned Textile in a bad light) you would have caught that ALL… read it again… ALL I mentioned XML for in the first place was a means for Stef to gradually wean people off of the current comment system. You know… so that stalwarts who refuse to switch to a new system could have a little time to arrange their sites to function with whatever the next system is. BUT NOOOOOOOOO. A group of buddy buddy internet rednecks got together and convinced themselves that bryon (see: my name) was here to wreck havoc in their beloved sandbox.

“Oh no! Quick, LYNCH HIM! He is going to steal our toys!”

Do any of you ever wonder why Wordpress has so many users and developers? Here’s a small hint… the main people don’t behave like a small group of back alley thugs.

Bryon · 2012-11-03 02:05:26

Here’s the deal. I tried.

You have offended me. Many of you. I would love to use words that would probably trigger a filter or two now. But, I won’t. Just know that you have made another human being on this planet to cringe at even the thought of using Textpattern from this day forward.

I now have several sites for which I have to find another cms to use. A couple of them are for personal/development purposes, one is for a local lan but 4 of them are being built to serve as new portal systems for LA, NYC, CHI and STL. It’s not going to be fun transferring everything to a new system. But, honestly, the thought of ever using something … that many of the people here have had anything to do with developing … makes me sick to my stomach.

My only hope at this point is that Stef, etc and a couple others who are not ( insert_word_that_would_trigger_filter_here )’s open their eyes and stop wasting their time, playing with spoiled brats and casting their pearls before swine.

Have a good day all. And don’t worry about your toys. I left them exactly where they were. Sorry that I didn’t realize that you were all still so territorial and downright childish.

Gocom · 2012-11-03 04:02:05

Bryon wrote:

Yes, I saw that.

It’s not exactly because of that. I said to advice other avoiding from fueling provocative storm. You must admit that you are trying to provoke and tick people off intentionally, aren’t you?

The reason why I haven’t commented anything to suggestions of XML is because I don’t have anything to exactly say about it, other than “well, it’s a thing” and “nope”. Having an XML database could be good or amazing, it could open up different set of tools, but it’s different. It doesn’t necessary make the system better, or something one must do.

Yes, there definitely should be an option to edit templates and styles as flat files, but internally Textpattern does use SQL and is known for that. RDBMS system is extendable too, and can be shaped to store and fit different type of comment systems as well as an XML database could.

Both an XML database and a RDBMS that uses SQL can store these comment systems and can made “pluggable” and customizable. Both are as open and as confusing. Both share set dependencies and the stored data will have relations in both. Both have their own pitfalls and their own fans. For certain etc will like XML, he for sure knows more than a thing about xPath, and for certain has some type of background with XML tools and languages. I neither have anything against XML based databases and systems. I use XSLT here and there even. But, it’s not what Textpattern uses.

Thing just is that Textpattern doesn’t use XSLT or XML. We use PHP, RDBMS and SQL as our database of choice, and templates are deployed using an XML-like templating language (this language is not really related to XML at all) and these tools should be used consistently for everything that can be, while keeping any limitations in mind. Having an XML parser tags in Textpattern could obviously be good. Such would allow easy integration of XML content in Textpattern websites, something we might look into in the future. I have nothing against set of XML parser tags personally.

As a full-blown XML databases go, one could potentially store Textpattern’s contents in one instead of an other data file scheme — by using an adapter. This would obviously require that the system would communicate using SQL as that is what Textpattern uses. We do have few MySQL dependencies that must be removed if possible, tho.

Textile in a bad light

What about Textile? It’s an simple text formatting syntax language, alternative to competitors such as Markdown. Both have pretty easy to use syntax. PHP version is maintained by a guy named Steve, goes by netcarver on these forums too. Nice and smart dude.

Textile just offers a propriety formatting syntax, like the rest of them. Everyone will prefer one over the other. It basically depends on what syntax one is used to. I don’t blame you if you don’t like it. I’m neutral about it. I have nothing against Textile, but I neither prefer it over Markdown. Both have their own limitations and I’ve used both.

You have offended me. Many of you.

I’m sorry if you do feel so.

“Oh no! Quick, LYNCH HIM! He is going to steal our toys!”

Steal what from whom? Me? I’m main people? Ummm… I’m just a contributor and a developer type people. Fix things and stuff, build platforms. Haven’t had lollipops in few years, but when I do please don’t take it.

Wordpress

WordPress is a great system and a very good alternative for Textpattern. They do deserve all love they get. They do get a lot undesired hate too. They have their set of issues, but they do get much more shit than anyone should.

the main people don’t behave like a small group of back alley thugs.

Thanks for that, I suppose.

Bryon · 2012-11-03 04:59:40

Gocom,

1) If you think that I began by trying to tick people off then you obviously did not read what I wrote in the order that I wrote it. The very first response I received from wet was obviously pointed and a jab. I responded in kind.

2) I never suggested replacing txp’s sql with xml. I replied to etc’s suggestion of the POSSIBILITY of doing so.

3) Textile is what it is. I, for one, do not like it and believe that by having it as the default markup drives more people away than it draws in. I stated my pint of view, quickly and precisely and got hammered for it… tag-team style by what I can only assume are angry, jumpy, zealots who acted like children afraid of losing toys. The vast majority of comments were (both in this thread and the dedicated one about “how bad it would be to lose textile”) were beyond pithy and jabs.

4) You’re sorry? For what? Being called out for openly poking at another person whom you’ve had absolutely no previous personal interaction with? I can’t imagine such a thing! (that’s technically sarcasm ie: I just did to you what you did to me in another thread). Get it now? I hope so. Maybe we’ll both be able to have a nice day, evening, night, weekend now that this has been cleared up.

Gocom · 2012-11-03 05:44:08

Bryon wrote:

1) If you think that I began by trying to tick people off then you obviously did not read what I wrote in the order that I wrote it. The very first response I received from wet was obviously pointed and a jab. I responded in kind.

I take this refers to the comment about spam filters? The whole spam thing wasn’t about you, but spammer in general on these forums. Sure, Robert doesn’t like when someone links to content and projects of “competitors”, and he neither rightfully appropriates when someone bashes his child (Textpattern) which he is raising for all us (he is paying for this shit). You also need to remember that he is not a native English speaker, I believe. He can come out bit hash at times. It’s not like he trying to beat you to death.

When you do slash out at someone’s work, bash it, blame it, you should expect that someone hits back or goes defensive. What else would you honestly expect. It’s human. We are not machines.

2) I never suggested replacing txp’s sql with xml. I replied to etc’s suggestion of the POSSIBILITY of doing so.

If I’m correct, you started by speaking of XML and XSLT:

I see the comments system in a similar light to the css system. They both need to be yanked. By that I mean removed from needing database tables other than for possibly live backups, archiving, storage or wtf-I-just-screwed-up-age.

In the case of css I would rather have a means of editing them in the admin as now but saving them as xml with the option of converting them to xslt. This would speed up the backend check any site that loads more than one style sheet at pingdome, hover the sheets and check the wait time.

For comments I also would prefer pulling them out of the database and storing them in xml. This would do a couple of things to save stef an Aneurysm being one. Most importantly it could lend time for the transfer between current usage and future as both systems could function at the same time if given the option in settings. It could make importing/exporting to other formats much more possible forums, FB, Twitter, irc, Jabber etc. Lastly, that I can imagine, it could make for headway on user style sheets think Opera browser Author/User modes which are the inevitable future.

The above speaks of replacing current database system with an XML (database) for comments and styles, removing SQL for those entities. Which is what I commented to.

4) You’re sorry? For what? Being called out for openly poking at another person whom you’ve had absolutely no previous personal interaction with? I can’t imagine such a thing! (that’s technically sarcasm ie: I just did to you what you did to me in another thread). Get it now? I hope so. Maybe we’ll both be able to have a nice day, evening, night, weekend now that this has been cleared up.

I do not really get. I do not feel that I have been called for. This thread doesn’t invoke any feelings in me other than “meh”, neither I asked “sorry” in sarcastic manner or for being called for doing wrong. I said “sorry” because you said you felt hurt. That’s a human thing to do. Someone is hurt, you say sorry.

I haven’t personally gotten any jabs from this thread, neither I have thrown any. I’m genuinely short-spoken and don’t like theoretical over-complicated bs.

wet · 2012-11-03 07:01:35

Oh my…

Gocom wrote:

I take this refers to the comment about spam filters? The whole spam thing wasn’t about you, but spammer in general on these forums.

This site is on a list of dofollow forums and regularly gets passed around low-wage SEO circles in developing countries.

As a countermeasure we have a few anti-spam rules for forum accounts in the “New members” group: They cannot use links in posts or signatures or add a website to their profile. Once one evolves into the next group “Members” these limitations are lifted. The criteria for group promotions are utterly top secret, of course.

Sure, Robert doesn’t like when someone links to content and projects of “competitors”

Nope. Everybody please feel free to link to anything even remotely related to the topic at hand. Just be aware that threads about Ed Hardy shirts, male enhancement pills and NFL baseball jerseys are a very rare topic hereabouts and have to prove their interestingness.

You also need to remember that he is not a native English speaker, I believe.

This is the sad truth: I had to look up “thug”, “jab”, and “insidious” to fully grok this thread. “Swine” and “red neck” were already part of my vocabulary.

On topic re: XML for comments: I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine. Pages, forms, and Textpattern tags are sufficient, no programming required.

philwareham · 2012-11-03 09:35:33

I’m not sure what just happened back there, but lets bring the subject back to Textpattern 5 development now.

As for XML storage for certain parts of the database, looks unlikely for the present but let’s keep an eye on it for future. Stef is already looking at comment system improvements which was why this topic arose in the first place so I trust he’ll do what he sees fit.

From my perspective, anyone posting radical changes to an free open source project must be prepared to have their idea shot down, sometimes passionately shot down, by the people that actually make said project (I’ve had many ideas i thought were great curbed – and rightly so, it’s nothing personal). If you think Matt Mullenweg over at WordPress is any different then you’ve obviously not had direct dealings – the very reason wordpress is successfull is because he is very focused on what he wants and knows when to say no.

etc · 2012-11-03 10:52:37

For certain etc will like XML, he for sure knows more than a thing about xPath, and for certain has some type of background with XML tools and languages.

I must be a great impostor. :) To make things clear, I know at best 1% of what the devs know about programming, and my opinion is to be considered in the same proportion. If it looks like bs, it very probably is, but Jukka is generally more helpful than that in explaining why.

Let us be more specific. I like SQL, but when I see all the pain you have to construct link_to_next tag… well, it’s done now. What if tomorrow someone needs to output “every 7th article from the current one, save for ID=13”? Some “zebra” construction, or a new tag? Then it should be called <txp:wheel />, because with XPath it could be as easy as following-sibling::*[position() mod 7 = 1 and whatever_you_need]. XPath is so easy to learn that it could even be used in public side tags. Frankly speaking, etc_query XPath support has replaced a dozen of plugins for me.

wet wrote:

I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine.

Robert, of course it can be done, but is not processing XML with XSL more natural than retrieving data with SQL and wrapping it in tags? If some day you add a new field to the comments table, will you write a new tag? Textpattern is rendering XML (well, HTML) documents, why not even discuss different ways?

GugUser · 2012-11-03 14:17:24

What’s going on with Bryon? Lovesickness or lacks sleep?

philwareham · 2012-11-03 15:22:09

Ok, I think we’re past that now, back on topic please everyone.

johnstephens · 2012-11-03 23:51:02

I have an on-topic question, which was actually posted by 6sigma a while back. If it was addressed, I didn’t see the answer:

6sigma wrote:

Did this discussion get continued somewhere else?

Did any of the following questions get answered or are they now marinating:

Rewrite or continue improvements?

Spark/Plug framework or no framework or other?

I’ve been very excited to see the ongoing development in the 4.x branch, but I am curious whether the proposed version 5 is still under consideration. All Jukka’s effort to document and clean up the codebase seems to suggest that porting Textpattern to Spark/Plug has been tabled, perhaps indefinitely.

I like Textpattern’s 4.x branch, and I watch the feed of it’s subversion repository with enthusiasm. The suggested direction of TXP 5 was also pretty interesting and I subscribed to that repository too; I just didn’t have the programming chops to contribute.

If the developers decide not to pursue a Spark/Plug-driven Textpattern 5, would the “version 5” label remain open to a future version of Textpattern, or would it be retired and skipped like the 4.1 crockery branch?

Gocom · 2012-11-04 00:27:46

johnstephens wrote:

porting Textpattern to Spark/Plug has been tabled, perhaps indefinitely.

I can’t answer for anyone else than for me, but I can openly say that I haven’t been working on a rewrite. The codebase we have now, in a form of 4.x, is the Textpattern there is.

When I was asked to join the team as a contributor, I asked if there was a rewrite, afraid of that the current codebase was a deadbeat. The answer which I got was no, which I agreed upon.

The only thing I know about Textpattern 5 is the same as you can gather based on it’s public repository which never picked on. From early 2011 to 2012 it got handful of commits after which the interest just seemingly dropped (not blaming anyone of that). As far as I’m aware, after that no one has done work on Textpattern 5.

If my intuition is somewhat correct, I wouldn’t be too sad about that. Even if there is no Textpattern 5, Textpattern 4.x is going strong and is steadily moving forward.

Last edited by Gocom (2012-11-04 00:34:38)

Bryon · 2012-11-04 03:38:11

wet wrote:
On topic re: XML for comments: I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine. Pages, forms, and Textpattern tags are sufficient, no programming required.

Thank you wet. That is all that ever needed said about it. My stated personal views are and have always been just that… statements of personal views. I was very direct and clear about that. People becoming so alarmed and running around like the house was on fire was… strange. I am still waiting to hear Bloke’s thoughts on Getsimple.

Gocom,

When someone writes “I see …”, “I would rather…” and “I would prefer”… why do so many people translate that into “It is!”, “I will make it” and “I will see to it that” ? Therein is the problem.

Last edited by Bryon (2012-11-04 03:40:30)

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#331 2012-11-02 18:53:49

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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#336 2012-11-03 04:59:40

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