The direction of Textpattern 5

Gocom · 2012-11-03 05:44:08

Bryon wrote:

1) If you think that I began by trying to tick people off then you obviously did not read what I wrote in the order that I wrote it. The very first response I received from wet was obviously pointed and a jab. I responded in kind.

I take this refers to the comment about spam filters? The whole spam thing wasn’t about you, but spammer in general on these forums. Sure, Robert doesn’t like when someone links to content and projects of “competitors”, and he neither rightfully appropriates when someone bashes his child (Textpattern) which he is raising for all us (he is paying for this shit). You also need to remember that he is not a native English speaker, I believe. He can come out bit hash at times. It’s not like he trying to beat you to death.

When you do slash out at someone’s work, bash it, blame it, you should expect that someone hits back or goes defensive. What else would you honestly expect. It’s human. We are not machines.

2) I never suggested replacing txp’s sql with xml. I replied to etc’s suggestion of the POSSIBILITY of doing so.

If I’m correct, you started by speaking of XML and XSLT:

I see the comments system in a similar light to the css system. They both need to be yanked. By that I mean removed from needing database tables other than for possibly live backups, archiving, storage or wtf-I-just-screwed-up-age.

In the case of css I would rather have a means of editing them in the admin as now but saving them as xml with the option of converting them to xslt. This would speed up the backend check any site that loads more than one style sheet at pingdome, hover the sheets and check the wait time.

For comments I also would prefer pulling them out of the database and storing them in xml. This would do a couple of things to save stef an Aneurysm being one. Most importantly it could lend time for the transfer between current usage and future as both systems could function at the same time if given the option in settings. It could make importing/exporting to other formats much more possible forums, FB, Twitter, irc, Jabber etc. Lastly, that I can imagine, it could make for headway on user style sheets think Opera browser Author/User modes which are the inevitable future.

The above speaks of replacing current database system with an XML (database) for comments and styles, removing SQL for those entities. Which is what I commented to.

4) You’re sorry? For what? Being called out for openly poking at another person whom you’ve had absolutely no previous personal interaction with? I can’t imagine such a thing! (that’s technically sarcasm ie: I just did to you what you did to me in another thread). Get it now? I hope so. Maybe we’ll both be able to have a nice day, evening, night, weekend now that this has been cleared up.

I do not really get. I do not feel that I have been called for. This thread doesn’t invoke any feelings in me other than “meh”, neither I asked “sorry” in sarcastic manner or for being called for doing wrong. I said “sorry” because you said you felt hurt. That’s a human thing to do. Someone is hurt, you say sorry.

I haven’t personally gotten any jabs from this thread, neither I have thrown any. I’m genuinely short-spoken and don’t like theoretical over-complicated bs.

wet · 2012-11-03 07:01:35

Oh my…

Gocom wrote:

I take this refers to the comment about spam filters? The whole spam thing wasn’t about you, but spammer in general on these forums.

This site is on a list of dofollow forums and regularly gets passed around low-wage SEO circles in developing countries.

As a countermeasure we have a few anti-spam rules for forum accounts in the “New members” group: They cannot use links in posts or signatures or add a website to their profile. Once one evolves into the next group “Members” these limitations are lifted. The criteria for group promotions are utterly top secret, of course.

Sure, Robert doesn’t like when someone links to content and projects of “competitors”

Nope. Everybody please feel free to link to anything even remotely related to the topic at hand. Just be aware that threads about Ed Hardy shirts, male enhancement pills and NFL baseball jerseys are a very rare topic hereabouts and have to prove their interestingness.

You also need to remember that he is not a native English speaker, I believe.

This is the sad truth: I had to look up “thug”, “jab”, and “insidious” to fully grok this thread. “Swine” and “red neck” were already part of my vocabulary.

On topic re: XML for comments: I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine. Pages, forms, and Textpattern tags are sufficient, no programming required.

philwareham · 2012-11-03 09:35:33

I’m not sure what just happened back there, but lets bring the subject back to Textpattern 5 development now.

As for XML storage for certain parts of the database, looks unlikely for the present but let’s keep an eye on it for future. Stef is already looking at comment system improvements which was why this topic arose in the first place so I trust he’ll do what he sees fit.

From my perspective, anyone posting radical changes to an free open source project must be prepared to have their idea shot down, sometimes passionately shot down, by the people that actually make said project (I’ve had many ideas i thought were great curbed – and rightly so, it’s nothing personal). If you think Matt Mullenweg over at WordPress is any different then you’ve obviously not had direct dealings – the very reason wordpress is successfull is because he is very focused on what he wants and knows when to say no.

etc · 2012-11-03 10:52:37

For certain etc will like XML, he for sure knows more than a thing about xPath, and for certain has some type of background with XML tools and languages.

I must be a great impostor. :) To make things clear, I know at best 1% of what the devs know about programming, and my opinion is to be considered in the same proportion. If it looks like bs, it very probably is, but Jukka is generally more helpful than that in explaining why.

Let us be more specific. I like SQL, but when I see all the pain you have to construct link_to_next tag… well, it’s done now. What if tomorrow someone needs to output “every 7th article from the current one, save for ID=13”? Some “zebra” construction, or a new tag? Then it should be called <txp:wheel />, because with XPath it could be as easy as following-sibling::*[position() mod 7 = 1 and whatever_you_need]. XPath is so easy to learn that it could even be used in public side tags. Frankly speaking, etc_query XPath support has replaced a dozen of plugins for me.

wet wrote:

I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine.

Robert, of course it can be done, but is not processing XML with XSL more natural than retrieving data with SQL and wrapping it in tags? If some day you add a new field to the comments table, will you write a new tag? Textpattern is rendering XML (well, HTML) documents, why not even discuss different ways?

GugUser · 2012-11-03 14:17:24

What’s going on with Bryon? Lovesickness or lacks sleep?

philwareham · 2012-11-03 15:22:09

Ok, I think we’re past that now, back on topic please everyone.

johnstephens · 2012-11-03 23:51:02

I have an on-topic question, which was actually posted by 6sigma a while back. If it was addressed, I didn’t see the answer:

6sigma wrote:

Did this discussion get continued somewhere else?

Did any of the following questions get answered or are they now marinating:

Rewrite or continue improvements?

Spark/Plug framework or no framework or other?

I’ve been very excited to see the ongoing development in the 4.x branch, but I am curious whether the proposed version 5 is still under consideration. All Jukka’s effort to document and clean up the codebase seems to suggest that porting Textpattern to Spark/Plug has been tabled, perhaps indefinitely.

I like Textpattern’s 4.x branch, and I watch the feed of it’s subversion repository with enthusiasm. The suggested direction of TXP 5 was also pretty interesting and I subscribed to that repository too; I just didn’t have the programming chops to contribute.

If the developers decide not to pursue a Spark/Plug-driven Textpattern 5, would the “version 5” label remain open to a future version of Textpattern, or would it be retired and skipped like the 4.1 crockery branch?

Gocom · 2012-11-04 00:27:46

johnstephens wrote:

porting Textpattern to Spark/Plug has been tabled, perhaps indefinitely.

I can’t answer for anyone else than for me, but I can openly say that I haven’t been working on a rewrite. The codebase we have now, in a form of 4.x, is the Textpattern there is.

When I was asked to join the team as a contributor, I asked if there was a rewrite, afraid of that the current codebase was a deadbeat. The answer which I got was no, which I agreed upon.

The only thing I know about Textpattern 5 is the same as you can gather based on it’s public repository which never picked on. From early 2011 to 2012 it got handful of commits after which the interest just seemingly dropped (not blaming anyone of that). As far as I’m aware, after that no one has done work on Textpattern 5.

If my intuition is somewhat correct, I wouldn’t be too sad about that. Even if there is no Textpattern 5, Textpattern 4.x is going strong and is steadily moving forward.

Last edited by Gocom (2012-11-04 00:34:38)

Bryon · 2012-11-04 03:38:11

wet wrote:
On topic re: XML for comments: I don’t think that our choice of storage technology makes a migration to alternate comment systems any easier (or harder). If one wants an XML presentation of her site’s comments it is a rather trivial task to render them as an XML document with Textpattern’s core templating engine. Pages, forms, and Textpattern tags are sufficient, no programming required.

Thank you wet. That is all that ever needed said about it. My stated personal views are and have always been just that… statements of personal views. I was very direct and clear about that. People becoming so alarmed and running around like the house was on fire was… strange. I am still waiting to hear Bloke’s thoughts on Getsimple.

Gocom,

When someone writes “I see …”, “I would rather…” and “I would prefer”… why do so many people translate that into “It is!”, “I will make it” and “I will see to it that” ? Therein is the problem.

Last edited by Bryon (2012-11-04 03:40:30)

wet · 2012-11-04 06:59:42

johnstephens wrote:

but I am curious whether the proposed version 5 is still under consideration.

While we were forming the 4.5 release we have discarded the idea of a “big rewrite” based on Spark/Plug, a PHP framework created by our former team member Sam Weiss, and will instead gradually modernize the current 4.x code base. We think that this decision matches the development capacity of both the core team and third-party developers better.

would the “version 5” label remain open to a future version of Textpattern

What’s one after 4.9? Might be 5.0, might be 4.10 as well. We haven’t yet decided.

Bloke · 2012-11-04 08:46:47

Bryon wrote:

I am still waiting to hear Bloke’s thoughts on Getsimple.

Bloke is remodelling his house a little. Normal service shall resume when the dust settles.

—
Sent from my underground lair

Destry · 2012-11-04 11:14:34

wet wrote:

While we were forming the 4.5 release we have discarded the idea of a “big rewrite” based on Spark/Plug, a PHP framework created by our former team member Sam Weiss, and will instead gradually modernize the current 4.x code base. We think that this decision matches the development capacity of both the core team and third-party developers better.

Okay. But taking the quiet road out isn’t exactly smart PR, because obviously people are confused. I didn’t even know Sam wasn’t a dev anymore (but I haven’t really been looking either). There are a lot of references to a so-called “Textpattern 5” and “TXP 5” around the properties.

I would suggest a dev blog post at .com that explains what has just been said here, to put it on “official” public record, because page 35 of a meandering forum thread is not exactly communicating with the customer base. I would also add an “Update” to Stef’s dev blog post where he announced “TXP 5” so that anyone who lands there is immediately clued/redirected to the current state of affairs. Lastly, we all need to scour the properties and remove references to “Textpattern 5” or they just keep confusing the situation.

Content and customers are just as important to think about as code and UIs. It’s the whole experience.

Ed.: I would even say close this thread with a redirect to the blog post, as soon as it’s written.

Last edited by Destry (2012-11-04 11:32:35)

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#337 2012-11-03 05:44:08

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#338 2012-11-03 07:01:35

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#339 2012-11-03 09:35:33

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#340 2012-11-03 10:52:37

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#341 2012-11-03 14:17:24

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#342 2012-11-03 15:22:09

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#343 2012-11-03 23:51:02

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#344 2012-11-04 00:27:46

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#345 2012-11-04 03:38:11

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#346 2012-11-04 06:59:42

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#347 2012-11-04 08:46:47

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#348 2012-11-04 11:14:34

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

Board footer