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#31 2011-06-24 12:22:47

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,220
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

merz1 wrote:

Never ever expect the core dev team to be on marketing duty…Having the brand under control is one thing but reaching out to the public 24/7 is another.

I think we can agree about “having the brand under control”, but let’s not exaggerate about what that requires (giving credit where due), or who should or shouldn’t be doing it.

I, for one, don’t expect devs to do what they can’t for time alone. It already takes a lot of timetime out of their free time. You see the key word there?

That’s the only legitimate reason why a dev may or may not choose to help popularize the tool they apparently take to heart. Even marketing skills are irrelevant; presence alone makes a huge difference. The idea that a software developer—hobbyist or otherwise—would not have interest in making their software known is ludicrous. Again, we only have to look at every other competitor to see it in action. In fact, we don’t even have to look farther than Txp developers promoting their own plugins. So why should that be any different for Txp itself?

This actually makes a great loop back to one of the links Bert mentioned earlier (a history to which Michael took exception too). I think that “historical review” deserves some credit for the research that did go into it, even if incomplete as far as Textpattern goes. Why incomplete? Because the only Txp reference in the article’s otherwise impressive list of references was to this thread started by raveoli (Oliver Nielsen) in 2008. But Oliver makes a statement a few posts down that I think captures a real historical problem for Textpattern in terms of it’s popularity today. Here’s a recap for ease:

The sheer innovation TXP brought to the table could have been brought a lot further, had all the focus not always been on “developers, developer, developers” but more on the holistic process of developing a good eco-system further. – 2008/11/3

Let’s be clear, he wasn’t talking about devs today, but the root of his complaint is still valid point. “Team Textpattern” is still developer-driven; there’s nobody on the team officially handling content, strategy, brand, whatever. Never has been. This is a significant reason few people in the world today know about Textpattern, compared to any other project that’s been around as long.

No, devs don’t have to market, and especially if they don’t have time, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. And if they don’t want to, they should get somebody on board who does and not rely on the public, because we all know how well that’s been working.

I mentioned giving Stef an admin role in the Facebook group so that “Team Textpattern” had control of the account going forward, not because I expected him to play community manager around the world clock. But if he, or any of the other “core devs”, dropped a note in there on occasion to show the world somebody leading the project actually cared to show they were a core dev, so much the better.

Nobody is excluded from talking about Txp at whatever capacity they can, and especially project leaders.


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#32 2011-06-24 13:43:57

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,220
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

I heard from Amit earlier today. He’s happy to share admin status on the Txp FB account, though I’m still waiting.

On a different note…

“Textpattern is a CMS (content management system) and blogging tool. It is elegant, well designed, and no one uses it (well, very few people). – Blankbaby

More proof that not all WP users are against Txp. :)


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#33 2011-06-24 19:52:04

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,194
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

Destry wrote:

This actually makes a great loop back to one of the links Bert mentioned earlier (a history to which Michael took exception too). I think that “historical review” deserves some credit for the research that did go into it, even if incomplete as far as Textpattern goes. Why incomplete? Because the only Txp reference in the article’s otherwise impressive list of references was to this thread started by raveoli (Oliver Nielsen) in 2008.

I may have been a little hard on Douglas but I found it annoying. And if he asked me for a relevant thread, I would have picked this one. and with complete immodesty, perhaps that one. I just thought his premise was faulty – he was trying to make the point that Dean spent years working on Textpattern and left over the frustration for not getting paid for his work. I don’t get that sense at all.

Let’s be clear, he wasn’t talking about devs today, but the root of his complaint is still valid point. “Team Textpattern” is still developer-driven; there’s nobody on the team officially handling content, strategy, brand, whatever. Never has been. This is a significant reason few people in the world today know about Textpattern, compared to any other project that’s been around as long.

I had a thought you might have been wrong on that point, but after reviewing Reid’s duties, they weren’t really marketing as such. And I don’t know what really came out of that, if anything.

No, devs don’t have to market, and especially if they don’t have time, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. And if they don’t want to, they should get somebody on board who does and not rely on the public, because we all know how well that’s been working. I mentioned giving Stef an admin role in the Facebook group so that “Team Textpattern” had control of the account going forward, not because I expected him to play community manager around the world clock. But if he, or any of the other “core devs”, dropped a note in there on occasion to show the world somebody leading the project actually cared to show they were a core dev, so much the better.

That makes perfect sense to me because

Mary wrote:

Back when I joined the team it was told to me that we shouldn’t f*** around with the homepage because Dean could swoop in. But it never happened, and is unlikely to happen. (For one thing he doesn’t have access to anything, and hasn’t for some time, so if he did ever want back in, he would have to actually ask first.)

While we don’t want the developers to feel like they have to be the marketing team, we also don’t want them to feel like they don’t get a say in things, either.

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#34 2011-06-28 01:19:52

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,634
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

michaelkpate wrote:

While we don’t want the developers to feel like they have to be the marketing team, we also don’t want them to feel like they don’t get a say in things, either.

I take a week off and when I come back, Textpattern has a marketing team!

@Destry – Keep the faith.

@Gocom – WordPress is an excellent blogging platform and I’m seriously thinking of switching all my Textpattern sites over to it ;)

Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Only one, but the lightbulb must want to change.

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#35 2011-06-28 11:00:17

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,194
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

hcgtv wrote:

@Gocom – WordPress is an excellent blogging platform and I’m seriously thinking of switching all my Textpattern sites over to it ;)

This is a comment I left on one of the Facebook discussion threads the other day.

What I love about the whole “Textpattern is for blogs” discussion is that I have always thought it was not a particular good blogging tool. You can certainly do blogs with it, of course, but it is a bit of work to tweak things. If I just want a blog, my first thought is going to be to use WordPress. If I want to manage some content and it isn’t really going to be a blog, my first thought is going to be to use Textpattern.

Most, although not all, of my “pure” blogs are running WordPress right now. That is something I do intend to change in some cases but as I say above, it is a bit of work. The question is, have we/do we really want/desire/need to compete with WP at every level? Or should Textpattern be competing as a cms against WordPress, Drupal, Joomla et al? Personally I think that is the better route.

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#36 2011-06-28 16:27:52

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,220
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

After a few days of admin-ing in FB, there’s one thing so far that’s become apparent to me. Nobody realizes there’s a particular development “philosophy” (for lack of a better descriptor) that’s been guiding Txp development over the years; the philosophy that’s been admirably adhered to since Dean. You know what I mean, keeping the core light and using plugins for extensibility rather than integrating everything people scream out.

It’s not really their fault, though, those people just don’t know this philosophy exists, and so they make those arguments time and again about putting this in the core or that thing, whatever, and see it as a cold shoulder when Txp doesn’t respond—they don’t really understanding what’s behind it. Hearing it from some loudmouth like me just comes across like argumentation and opinion. It needs to be more officially expressed.

Something written and posted at .com (probably under About section somewhere)—a tight, articulate essay about this long-standing development tradition. Something that can be easily pointed to every time these arguments and/or gripes come up. When they understand that philosophy, it can be easier for them to come to terms with how things are. They can realize what the value proposition of that kind of development is. They’re used to communities where devs just build whatever gets the most votes. Txp has never been that way and it’s foreign to them. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t, though, if that aspect of Txp development was more openly expressed; the value made more clear.

It’s like a mission statement for development of sorts, but whatever you do, don’t call it a mission statement because those are no-no’s anymore. Call it a philosophy or value tradition or whatever, but I think this would be a very smart piece of content.


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#37 2011-06-28 16:37:50

philwareham
Core designer
From: Farnham, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

I know I’ve said it a number of times, but I still think one of the main problems when evangelising to potential new users is that the default core themes are so bloomin’ ugly and uninviting. Something I’m trying to counter here and here.

Last edited by philwareham (2011-06-28 16:39:37)

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#38 2011-06-28 18:21:00

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,194
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

Destry wrote:

You know what I mean, keeping the core light and using plugins for extensibility rather than integrating everything people scream out.

I have been digging into stuff lately and finding some things a bit confusing because I had never explored them before. If everything were this simple:

everything is a page. You’d then apply rules to the relationships. For example, If page is two levels deep and the parent = (parent-title) then apply this template. – Subsections

Alas,

Basically, I think the problem is that we are unnecessarily associating a function (cross section aggregation), with a specific position in the layout of a website (front page), and then confusing everything even more by using the same term to describe a fall-back page layout. – Default section and Front page not the same anymore

TXP uses the front page by default for category lists, unless you tell it otherwise by using the section or this_section attribute in category_list. – No Article Tag on ‘Default’ page Causing No Category Listing

So, if your authors have contributed to more than one section, you must ensure that all those sections have show on front page selected in order to see them in the author list on the front page. It’s just the way TXP works. – Why txp:author links to frontpage

What always used to catch me out is that any call to <txp:article> in your default page template when q= is in the URL triggers search results via the search_form form. Since txp:article is clever and is automatically context sensitive, it doesn’t matter whether you use if_search or not — that’s just a convenience function – Disabling search_results?

Telling people to inhale the Semantic Model definitely helps them in the long run, but to repeat this bit of advice from someone much wiser than I:

If people come to planet Textpattern and are immediately forced to start asking questions in the forum, we’ve failed them. – User docs are one thing, but what about Txp content in general?

I think there is a better balance yet to be achieved.

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#39 2011-06-28 18:38:01

maruchan
Member
From: Ukiah, California
Registered: 2010-06-12
Posts: 583
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

I know I’ve said it a number of times, but I still think one of the main problems when evangelising to potential new users is that the default core themes are so bloomin’ ugly and uninviting. Something I’m trying to counter here and here.

I Like This. Have you identified the decision maker for getting this stuff included as default? I mean, if all we have to do is harass Wet or something, I’ll be all over it. :-)

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#40 2011-06-28 19:07:05

wet
Developer
From: Lenzing, Austria
Registered: 2005-06-06
Posts: 3,267
Website

Re: I had never heard of it (Textpattern) before

Gentlemen, start harassing.

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