punBB

Destry · 2011-01-06 00:15:42

maverick wrote:

Perhaps it is an opportunity…to editorially consolidate the best information (as time allows) into other applicable locations rather than the forums?

It’s absolutely the right time. Well, past time, but let’s be optimistic about the future.

The right approach would be to first inventory the forum of all content considered valuable. That in itself will be quite a chore, but a critical one. If done in a systematic way, it makes for the best odds of capturing everything considered valuable, but also helps map and filter it down to the key bits so it’s easier to rewrite in a targeted location, whether plugin content to .org, user docs to the wiki, etc.

I’d agree with Bloke about the specific “How To” forum being pretty bare-bones and not much there. But there are tonnes of doc-worthy gems all throughout this entire system, even staggered inside just a single long thread. They are not going to just fall into your lap.

For example, I think of the tag examples in each of the Tag Reference pages. A lot of those are pretty abstract, or so dry and without context that they aren’t very helpful. But the forum is full—*chock full*—of fantastic tag code examples detailing different tag structure scenarios. Those are gold, and they are the kind of examples that should be relocated to the respective tag pages (as best fits the topics).

It’s a lot of work to track them down, though, and there might be so much redundancy in the forum we find it’s not necessary after a certain point to dig ever deeper. Maybe we put a sensible limit on the hunt by going back only a far as a certain Txp version. In the case of tags, we probably want to be mindful of when tags changed or became deprecated, etc. But you get the idea.; you could use that as a reasonable way to scale the hunt and peck effort a bit.

I’m doing an inventory on the FAQs now, as Bloke hinted to, and I could start one for the forum and add a few line items to show what that would look like. I’ll keep that on my list of to dos for the near future.

Btw…“TextBook”, the name, is no more. I would suggest we start killing use of that henceforth, and remove reference of it wherever it exists (navigation, articles, etc), beginning with in this forum’s navigation levels. Call it the wiki, or the docs, but not TextBook. It was a confusing name for anyone not inside the community, really, nor was it particularly great for referencing. We probably clung to it too long as it is.

Bloke · 2011-01-06 00:32:13

Destry wrote:

… the tag examples in each of the Tag Reference pages. A lot of those are pretty abstract, or so dry and without context that they aren’t very helpful.

Totally agree. I suggest that if anyone stumbles across a great use of a tag they paste it into the relevant tag page and delete any boring non-contexty, useless offering that was previously there.

Btw…“TextBook”, the name, is no more.

Yay.

… remove reference of it wherever it exists (navigation, articles, etc), beginning with in this forum’s navigation levels.

There’s a tantalising ‘Edit’ button on the Administration->Forums section of this site. Does that just change the visible link name? i.e. will it kill anything if someone edits it?

els · 2011-01-06 01:07:08

Bloke wrote:

There’s a tantalising ‘Edit’ button on the Administration->Forums section of this site. Does that just change the visible link name? i.e. will it kill anything if someone edits it?

I think you can safely edit the (sub)forum name ;) But I don’t think we can access the ‘Txp Network Links’ code from here…

wet · 2011-01-06 08:38:57

Els wrote:

But I don’t think we can access the ‘Txp Network Links’ code from here…

No, it’s in a template file. I’ve moved all stale references, hopefully.

hcgtv · 2011-01-06 15:16:38

maverick wrote:

Perhaps it is an opportunity…to editorially consolidate the best information (as time allows) into other applicable locations rather than the forums?

That all depends on the approach that is taken for a new forum.

Let’s say Phorum is chosen to move us forward, well then you can actually consolidate around the forum. If I was to start Textpattern from scratch, I would have the main site, a forum, a templates site and the wiki. The plugins can be hosted at the forum neatly available for download with all it’s corresponding discussion.

Destry wrote:

For example, I think of the tag examples in each of the Tag Reference pages. A lot of those are pretty abstract, or so dry and without context that they aren’t very helpful. But the forum is full—*chock full*—of fantastic tag code examples detailing different tag structure scenarios.

Yes, I noticed that when I was creating the Textpattern Tags site. But honestly, going through this forum is a huge chore, and if you do find something, you should link back to the appropriate thread, but until a decision is made on this forum, doing such a task may be double work if this forum is upgraded to something else and the links change.

Destry · 2011-01-06 16:24:09

hcgtv wrote:

But honestly, going through this forum is a huge chore, and if you do find something, you should link back to the appropriate thread, but until a decision is made on this forum, doing such a task may be double work if this forum is upgraded to something else and the links change.

I’m guessing you’ve never done a content inventory before. And I don’t mean just running an xml script to create a site map. I mean a manual inventory (like would be necessary in this case anyway). Yes, they are a lot of work, and tedious, and anyone who has done one makes no delusions about it. But those people will also tell you they are, and I say it again, critical for finding and auditing information, determining what’s ROT (redundant, outdated or trivial), and systematically transcribing the good stuff in the right locations.

Also, the whole point is NOT to update the system before the audit has been done. Likewise, if links are at a risk before rewrites are finished, the old system needs put on a dev location somewhere until the job is complete. Saying links will be lost because someone wants to rush into a system upgrade is reckless. Backup. Safeguard online (out of the way if necessary). Inventory/audit content. Transcribe content. THEN kill the old beast.

Like I said, I’ll get an inventory started at some point soon and then the ball is rolling. Without seeing one, it’s hard to get the idea of how important they are for something like this.

hcgtv · 2011-01-06 18:18:34

Destry wrote:

I’m guessing you’ve never done a content inventory before.

Yes I have, while at Nucleus CMS I helped to consolidate the docs, skins(themes) and was instrumental in the overall look and feel of the web presence. I didn’t venture into the wiki and plugins since it was hosted somewhere else, territorial wars and all that. Also, if you care to look at my personal wiki, I have quite a lot of docs for the projects I’ve worked on in the past, I’m really good at consolidating information I deem important to my work.

What I’m getting out of this thread, that started talking about PunBB and the direction we should take for a forum, is that the wiki should be the center of the universe, so to speak. While I think the center of the Textpattern universe should be the forum, since it’s where the most people hang out at.

maverick · 2011-01-06 18:38:30

hcgtv wrote:

If I was to start Textpattern from scratch, I would have the main site, a forum, a templates site and the wiki. The plugins can be hosted at the forum neatly available for download with all it’s corresponding discussion.

I get where you are coming from. I’ve always found it non-intuitive to have the plugins at one site (textpattern.org), and maybe a few comments, and another site to really discuss/troubleshoot them, and then yet another one at the plugin author’s website. And maybe more discussion. And then maybe another spot on svn/git/google code/etc.

That’s not a criticism per say, and I’m 100% in support of freedom and flexibility. The system we’ve been using works – at least to some extent. And most of the time its the same info in all places. But not always.

For both sides – the plugin user, and the plugin author it seems like a lot of extra work, duplication, places to check, etc.

Realistically, plugin authors need to be free to do as they wish – host their plugins and development at the place of their choice, drive traffic to their websites if desired, etc. So that part’s not likely to change.

I’m not convinced a forum is the best place as the host plugin. Certainly for discussion it is, but from the features that Bloke has described, the new version of Textpattern.org sounds far more capable than we are likely to get in a basic forum. Things like the plugin update features coming.

From my perspective it would be preferable to bring a more robust feedback/comment/forum option to Txp than bring the plugins to the forum. But that’s just my perspective.

hcgtv · 2011-01-06 18:54:44

maverick wrote:

I’m not convinced a forum is the best place as the host plugin. Certainly for discussion it is, but from the features that Bloke has described, the new version of Textpattern.org sounds far more capable than we are likely to get in a basic forum. Things like the plugin update features coming.

If I was starting from scratch, I would have plugin downloads and support at the forum to keep things simple. The new Textpattern.org may well prove to be nicer, but it’s just another site to maintain that takes time away from the developers.

This is what I would do:
Textpattern.com – Home page
Textpattern.net – Forum
Textpattern.org – Wiki
Textgarden.org – Templates/Themes

Destry · 2011-01-07 01:49:49

hcgtv wrote:

Yes I have, while at Nucleus CMS I helped to consolidate the docs,

I stand corrected on your inventory experience. I guess what I meant was that people who have done them usually understand how important they are afterwards and don’t talk about passing over them. I would be glad to look over your docs when I get a chance. Did you use an actual inventory spreadsheet in the work? That’s the standard industry tool, really, and what I mean when I refer to an “inventory”.

hcgtv wrote:

What I’m getting out of this thread… is that the wiki should be the center of the universe, so to speak. While I think the center of the Textpattern universe should be the forum, since it’s where the most people hang out at.

That the wiki is the center of attention is certainly not what I’m saying. I asked a legitimate question about what’s going to happen with this aging heap. What I saw being talked about after that is the idea of a new forum system and the potential need or opportunity in the course of it to capture valuable information. And frankly, a clean slate is a better idea than simply porting the entire rat’s nest to a new system. But an even better idea is to flag that percentage of high-quality info and put it in appropriate locations. You and I have already acknowledged how the Tag Reference data could be better supported with forum tag examples otherwise lost. That says nothing of the ridiculously long plugin support threads, 80% of which are wastelands to wade through (coming back to this at bottom).

I often talk about the wiki for the simple fact it’s better suited for handling docs. Much more so than a discussion forum, which is better at generating redundancy and detritus. That’s why the 130+ FAQ came about, to try and answer forum questions asked over and over and over again. But that was the wrong way to handle it. When the FAQ surpassed twelve, it was time for a different approach. Never happened. Opportunities are presenting themselves now to try and undo the informational rat nest. Reference to the wiki, or documentation in general is going to come up because it’s the right place to capture that kind of information, while maintaining collaboration on it.

I don’t argue that the forum is where this community hangs. Hell, it is the community. The forum is the only thing this community has, really. Nobody seems to give a turd about meeting up face-to-face. No TextCamps or BeerUps or whatever. No organised events to promote Txp in the work environment or whatever. Nope. You need the forum or you have no Txp community. Plain and simple. But a mistake would be to continue to use the forum as a catch-all for everything. Right now it’s way too bloated with legacy crap and confusing navigation.

Textpattern.org may well prove to be nicer, but it’s just another site to maintain that takes time away from the developers.

I’m not a developer, so I’m not going to make a judgement on whether .org would be better for devs or not. But that does sound very developer centric.

What I do know is that plugin support threads with dozens of pages covering six version upgrades is a real pain in the arse for non developers to wade through. The support thread is an important brain dump on the moment. I realize that. But there’s no knowledge capture process involved. The details are in the thread, but they’re often spread out over miles of needless pages and words. It needs to be captured and edited down to an easily searched, maintained, and read fact sheet of sorts – a wiki page, for example. Even plugin help in the plugin is often dodgy, and probably another reason why a single community page, jointly maintained, would be better for devs and users alike.

On a different note, your list about what site for what platform is interesting, assuming a “Plugins’ site went south, but I don’t see the point of moving the wiki to .org if it’s just .org and the forum in question. In that case, just put the new forum—a clean slate—on .org and be done with it. Less shuffling around. The old forum could remain where it’s at until data is audited and transfered as deemed appropriate. Stripping it down as content is dealt with.

Good discussion, Bert. Healthy. :)

hcgtv · 2011-01-07 04:51:52

Destry wrote:

I would be glad to look over your docs when I get a chance. Did you use an actual inventory spreadsheet in the work?

Spreadsheets, notes, coffee, shots of bourbon ;)

That the wiki is the center of attention is certainly not what I’m saying. I asked a legitimate question about what’s going to happen with this aging heap.

I’ve been asking the same question for some time. By now, I would of had a new forum up and running. I’m not much into meetings, discussions, whiteboards, what have you. I’m more of a hands on person, I’d rather take my ideas for a spin and see if they work, rather than contemplate if they will while we order lunch.

I don’t argue that the forum is where this community hangs. Hell, it is the community. The forum is the only thing this community has, really. Nobody seems to give a turd about meeting up face-to-face. No TextCamps or BeerUps or whatever.

I totally agree, without the forum, there is no Textpattern. As far as meetups go, the only way to organize events would be to know where everybody lives. Alexandra built a blogmap at TXP Mag, we could do the same on this forum with a Google Maps module that’s available for Phorum.

What I do know is that plugin support threads with dozens of pages covering six version upgrades is a real pain in the arse for non developers to wade through.

I hear you, and for those plugin pages, I believe a threaded view would be most appropriate.

On a different note, your list about what site for what platform is interesting, assuming a “Plugins’ site went south, but I don’t see the point of moving the wiki to .org if it’s just .org and the forum in question. In that case, just put the new forum—a clean slate—on .org and be done with it.

I like .com for the main site, .net for network(ing) fits a forum and of course the .org feels right for a wiki. Just my own preferences, as to how I would lay an Open Source project out.

Good discussion, Bert. Healthy. :)

Do you want the club sandwich or the Caesar salad?

maverick · 2011-01-07 17:49:16

hcgtv wrote:

Do you want the club sandwich or the Caesar salad?

mmmm. Lunch! ;-P

maverick · 2011-01-07 18:10:49

hcgtv wrote:

I’m not much into meetings, discussions, whiteboards, what have you. I’m more of a hands on person, I’d rather take my ideas for a spin and see if they work, rather than contemplate if they will while we order lunch.

There are merits both ways. Jumping in feet first and working out the details later can get things done, but can also mean a lot more mid-course corrections as you go. A good plan where everyone is on the same page takes a bit longer, but once you go, can get you there faster. At least in theory.

The problem is when we discuss something, and then discuss it again, and again, and again. But never settle on a plan, or never carry out the plan.

As I see it, we have two key areas to settle so we can move forward.

Are we going to put up a new forum and what will it be?

Given past discussions it sounds like the consensus is yes we need to upgrade/replace the forum. The three main suggestions have been Vanilla, FluxBB, and Phorum. The go ahead was given to FluxBB but has not happened for reasons beyond the control of the person who volunteered to work on it.

So the question is — do we push ahead with that plan, bring in others, or start fresh with Phorum or (Vanilla, but it seems Phorum has a bit more support)?

Once the previous question is decided, the what, where, how, and who of saving the many gems in this forum. And how much to we want to devolve to the other venues?

The rough outline for that seems to be:

How-Tos moved from the forum to Txp-Tips.
FAQs to the wiki
Tag Examples to the Wiki

Questions to Consider

Should we move the textile support thread to the pending new home of Textile?
Should there be some sort of integration of the “Show Me Your Site” thread with Textgarden?
Content-wise – Where does tag examples , etc. in the wiki stop and Txp Tips begin?
How to best tie our plugins downloads and support forums/documentation for those plugins together

It seems to me that the first question – Continuing w/ the FluxBB upgrade or changing over to Phorum needs Wet, Art, and Bloke to sign off on, then we can move ahead on the next step.

Just my take of where we are.

hcgtv · 2011-01-07 19:40:05

maverick wrote:

The problem is when we discuss something, and then discuss it again, and again, and again. But never settle on a plan, or never carry out the plan.

History does teach one to be cautious. I remember when we started talking about the redesign of the wiki and Zero went ahead and built up a really nice version of it using Dokuwiki. His work went for naught, though he did send it to me so I could use it at xPattern.

I’m already working on a new forum using Phorum for my new templates site, so I’m familiar with it’s templating system, and I might add that you can make it do anything you want. So should one day we go from talk towards action, I can help in the design of the new forum.

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#31 2011-01-06 00:15:42

Re: punBB

#32 2011-01-06 00:32:13

Re: punBB

#33 2011-01-06 01:07:08

Re: punBB

#34 2011-01-06 08:38:57

Re: punBB

#35 2011-01-06 15:16:38

Re: punBB

#36 2011-01-06 16:24:09

Re: punBB

#37 2011-01-06 18:18:34

Re: punBB

#38 2011-01-06 18:38:30

Re: punBB

#39 2011-01-06 18:54:44

Re: punBB

#40 2011-01-07 01:49:49

Re: punBB

#41 2011-01-07 04:51:52

Re: punBB

#42 2011-01-07 17:49:16

Re: punBB

#43 2011-01-07 18:10:49

Re: punBB

#44 2011-01-07 19:40:05

Re: punBB

Board footer