[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 21:49:39

hegtv:

Good point. I should have said there are no safe bets.

I would say EE tried to do right by its pMachine users, consistent with an intelligent and intelligible road map. I can live with that kind of process. And I like that the source code for EE is available for full use (short of resale). I believe if the company crashed they would release the source code for GPL.

Anyway, my nose tells me EE has five years of future commitment and stretch ahead of it (a tech lifetime) but hey … roll them dice.

hcgtv · 2006-02-23 22:14:39

Russ,

No, there are no safe bets, agreed.

EE has about 5 more years before they get all the modules done, where’s that E-Commerce module ;)

Though we’re a bit off-topic, I think it’s relevant to this thread to point out that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

alexandra · 2006-02-23 22:25:45

> hcgtv wrote:

> point out that the grass is not always greener on the other side

though it is greener with money :)

Dean did talk about TextBase once. Does anybody remember that?

zem · 2006-02-23 22:30:39

The whole point of the opensource thing is feeding from user’s suggestions to make the app more usable, user-oriented and thus often better than the commercial competition. Same goes for designers input, as I said, as far as accessiblity, templating or hunt for hardcoded styles in the code. Also same goes for plugin writers, adding features and expandability to your software. Not to mention bug reports.

Not true. Open Source is just a development method. If there’s one thing no software project has a shortage of, it’s user suggestions. Commercial or open source makes no difference. Likewise for community, plugins, add-ons and so on. Proprietary software has those things too.

Textpattern has a lively community because it is good, not because it is open source.

Also, I think TXP is a very zen thing…

Perhaps the truest thing said here. Not writing code can be very productive, if it’s the right code.

Some of the most important innovations over the past 6 months or so have been entirely behind the scenes. Testing in particular. New features, lines of code, announcements are not the only measures of success.

Call me an optimist, but I think people are pretty good at understanding and protecting their own best interests. Give the developers a little credit. And have a little faith. Some things take time.

nardo · 2006-02-23 22:33:22

personally I’ve always liked the vibe around textpattern – I read the word ‘contrarian’, maybe a bit like that, but with more nous and humour – and zem zen… and the lack of themes and a theme engine perhaps the best thing about it : ) I accept wet’s point (that the themes encourage take-up and provide financial reward for a theme-developer group) but disagree that txp is a design wasteland… I think the base install only encourages creativity. I’m also not convinced that there needs to be an umbrella design or consistent branding across txp-related sites… I think they all have the vibe anyway… (in addition I’ve always liked Dean’s design sense with the main site & forum – WP is plain ugly).

then again, from a layman’s view, it does seem if the committed/talented plugin devs could be given more assistance to assist with core code – understanding that creating patch-queues or other open funnels to dump code not rigorously tested is only eating into valuable development time … and users who request features understand now (I think) that they need to demonstrate their case clearly and comprehensively – whether it be rss feeds, etc

just going back to what maniqui said – there are advantages to not being WP or MT (smaller community, less junk) – but obviously we all have different ideas of what txp is / could be

personally I think the manual works great for hard facts, the faq for solutions to everyday issues, and the forum for taking up the slack (not everyone knows how to ask the right question to get the right answer) … I admit to being unaware there was some concern among key members of the community; so I don’t dismiss this topic at all and say it is unfounded… just my comments…

Jeremie · 2006-02-23 22:54:01

zem wrote:
Call me an optimist, but I think people are pretty good at understanding and protecting their own best interests. Give the developers a little credit. And have a little faith. Some things take time.

Ok, it’s now very clear Zem’s account has been hacked.

Or possibly he has been captured by little grey aliens and replace with a doppleganger.

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 23:31:57

“Not writing code can be very productive, if it’s the right code.”

Heh. So true. One reason I love the TxP way. Trust us, we feel it.

But surely Zen is not incompatible with communication, however enigmatic. And, of course, there has been much over the years. Faith in the devs is compatible with the community’s felt (?) need for more visible road-map planning. Indeed, as David reiterated in this thread, this is as much about providing a framework for the community to help predictably as it is about anything with devs – more the former than the latter. But for the former to occur, some sort of predictable communication and goal-ing will be required by key players.

In an open-source project, the hard-sweating devs are never wrong and should never be discouraged. But the same is equally true of the community. Finding the set intersection will determine whether TxP makes it to the next stage or withers.

Alas, Zen is also compatible with (literal) emptiness.

Last edited by RussLipton (2006-02-23 23:35:11)

davidm · 2006-02-24 01:05:39

Jeremie wrote: Ok, it’s now very clear Zem’s account has been hacked. Or possibly he has been captured by little grey aliens and replace with a doppleganger.

lol

A really great one ;D Fun jokes, feels like the old days !
(Sorry guys about the light mood on a not so light subject, it’s late here and it’s been a long day)…

andjules · 2006-02-24 03:44:58

The whole point of the opensource thing is feeding from user’s suggestions to make the app more usable, user-oriented

ummm, kind of. but not usually. open source projects have a tendency to have a ‘built by developers, for developers’ feel – too many features, too many mindsets, not enough clearly-defined levels, and a whole lot of duct tape holding clunky interfaces together. As much as TXP sometimes suffered from Dean’s singular vision, it is the singularity that has kept TXP fairly simple, fairly elegant, fairly usable.

so my 2 cents:
textpattern has generally appealed to folks with some HTML/CSS prowess, even some PHP (it’s weak compared to other blogs/CMSs for ‘off-the-shelf-instant-blogs’), but also folks with a soft spot for the lightweight, less-is-more mindset. The plugin approach, and the soon-to-come ‘elements’ approach help keep TXP’s core light.
Whatever the outcome of this discussion (and I think this discussion is great), please, let’s keep it light, streamlined, not another open source, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink project. The world already has Mambo/Joomla, for better or worse. It already has Drupal – a good thing, if you want to get neck deep.

Last edited by andjules (2006-02-24 03:45:32)

davidm · 2006-02-24 07:00:13

andjules wrote:Whatever the outcome of this discussion (and I think this discussion is great), please, let’s keep it light, streamlined, not another open source, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink project. The world already has Mambo/Joomla, for better or worse. It already has Drupal – a good thing, if you want to get neck deep.

I couldn’t agree more with you on this, you summed it up quite well (and I too said Elements was a great prospect !)

So that everyone is clear about it though : we never talked about changing development’s orientation or pace, but talked everything outside dev itself and the fact that some task would be better handed over to other people to lighten the burden of the dev team and allow willing (and hopefully able ;p) contributors to involve themselves in an extended (more organized and communicative) team…

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-24 07:01:13)

Skubidu · 2006-02-24 08:24:01

I couldn’t write earlier, because I was sick over the last 2 days. But as I am one of the three initiators of this thread, I like to comment on a few things I’ve now read in this thread. Please forgive me if some things have been said before…

First of all and again: We didn’t start this thread neither to fork textpattern nor to make Textpattern a commercial product. I think it’s very important, that Textpattern’s source code stays free. And all this discussion is not about complaining about the devs working to slow. It’s about not knowing the plans for the future.

In my oppinion, Textpattern is a very design orientated CMS: The concept of sections, pages and forms with all the tiny tags are really easy to use if you like to build a website. For me this is one of the biggest advantages – you can build very complex websites without getting in trouble of having to handle dozens of external files. I think that’s why many people here in the forums don’t know much about PHP coding but about doing HTML websites. If I think of an admin side face lift: I think it’s important, because Textpattern has to keep up to date and because other comparable systems have made big improvements in this area. I know that there are other thing having to be done before this and that’s why – again – I think there is a need of some kind of a roadmap or coordination: A list saying, that we (the people caring about Textpattern) like to do this and that in this order. This list may change often, but it would give an overview about what is planned. There has to be a possibility for non coders to contribute ideas, therefor they have to know what is planned.

I hope that at the end of this discussion, we will have more people who are officially taking care of Textpattern. For example, you don’t need to be a PHP coder to write the FAQ, you don’t need to be a coder to take care of a kind of Textpattern portal (a new textpattern.com) with an official plugin repository and (hopefully) localized areas (like fr.textpattern.com, de.textpattern.com etc).

We have so many people here having great ideas and who are willing to spend their free time here. So if we spread the responsibilities and getting more people in the core team Textpattern will move on quicker. I’m convinced we don’t have the problem that there are too less people having time to contribute things. It just has not yet been communicated properly how to contribute, if your not a PHP programer.

Last edited by Skubidu (2006-02-24 08:24:27)

tranquillo · 2006-02-24 12:27:25

“The plugin approach, and the soon-to-come ‘elements’ approach help keep TXP’s core light.”

It’s all in this statement by andjules, you just have to read, what’s really written there:

The elements will give the possibility to add modules to txp (more individual features!!!!).
With this, developers (in groups or one by one) can help the core team develop txp by coding modules (no need to increase the number of the core devs).
The core team can stay as it is and keep developing the core.
Plugins will consist of one file to install, larger plugins will become elements (a subject from the mailinglist).

Hence, the roadmap of the core team is far better, than it might appear.

On the other hand, I totally agree with some ideas in this thread to improve communication, plugin repository etc. I suggest, that everybody, who’s willing to spend his time to improve these things, signs up on a list (the textbook list is to narrow, imho: everyone should be able to point out, what specific task he is willing and able to do (not just admin, mod and forum tech)) and further steps are then discussed and realized within this group of people. I think, that there are enough ideas in this thread to get started doing them.

Last edited by tranquillo (2006-02-26 10:38:29)

Jeremie · 2006-02-24 14:23:42

tranquillo wrote:
I suggest, that everybody, who’s willing to spend his time to improve these things, signs up on a list (the textbook list is to narrow, imho: everyone should be able to point out, what specific task he is willing and able to do (not just admin, mod and forum tech)) and further steps are then discussed and realized within this group of people.

It’s a wiki page, if you have a better idea of doing it, wiki your way in and make it better :)

davidm · 2006-02-24 15:38:40

Jeremie wrote: It’s a wiki page, if you have a better idea of doing it, wiki your way in and make it better :)

lol

Now you sound like someone I know, Jeremie ;D
… let’s set back and relax guys ;P

This being said, I don’t see how the wiki would be a bad tool to “sign up” for a given role ?

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-24 15:39:44)

jdueck · 2006-02-24 15:44:52

OK, let’s stop talking and put this on the fast track.

Let’s set up a meeting on April 24th to delegate a committee to do an investigation. The committee’s report will be due at the end of August, at which time they will report on their findings and issue recommendations. On September 20th there will be a hearing on the merits and disadvantages of the committee’s recommendations, followed by a meeting on November 17th to vote to select a single member to draft a resolution on the same. Revisions to the resolution will be offered on the Dec. 11th meeting, and (after adjourning for the holidays) a final resolution will come up for vote on January 29th, after which a committee will be selected to draft a schedule for implementation of the resolution and assign responsibilities.

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#76 2006-02-23 21:49:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#77 2006-02-23 22:14:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#78 2006-02-23 22:25:45

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#79 2006-02-23 22:30:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#80 2006-02-23 22:33:22

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#81 2006-02-23 22:54:01

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#82 2006-02-23 23:31:57

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#83 2006-02-24 01:05:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#84 2006-02-24 03:44:58

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#85 2006-02-24 07:00:13

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#86 2006-02-24 08:24:01

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#87 2006-02-24 12:27:25

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#88 2006-02-24 14:23:42

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#89 2006-02-24 15:38:40

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#90 2006-02-24 15:44:52

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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