[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 20:21:03

I too have used Txp for almost two years; rarely posted. I am a heavier user of EE now and also exploring ModX seriously.

I do feel Txp has moved very s….l….owly, yet it is so elegant I haven’t minded much. However, the departure of Dean and the lack of a road map is leading me strongly away from Txp. I see this thread as way long overdue and quite positive in spirit.

Road maps are perilous because they bind devs to their word (often negatively experienced, especially when one is not salaried) but, put more positively, they bind together a community. This may be the price the devs have to pay if their passion for Txp remains intense.

For instance, without roles, I cannot use Txp for serious use cases; my Txp use remains trivial. It wouldn’t bother me way too much if a date of summer, 2007 was put on it and it was delivered in winter, 2008 so long as I knew it was coming and had periodic comfort reports. I might still use other stuff in the meanwhile but I would keep my long-term use of Txp as a valuable part of my toolkit alive.

The notion of an ‘economy’ for Txp is more important than has perhaps been realized by this very special community. That can consist of intangible rewards, as we know, but those, even more than bucks, have to yield tons-o-fun. I notice how many acknowledge with realistic sadness a decline in fun since the early days. Right. Always happens, as DavidM notes – hence a thread like this one. But we should also acknowledge the need to pump back in the fun. It can be done.

Money, which comes in handy in the real world (pace Jimmy Stewart), also produces loyalty once the initial passions cool. This is why Expression Engines is a safer investment for my serious projects. Commercial vendors are not always evil; sometimes, they are stable. I had foreseen TextDrive as a stability generator for Txp development. I think I erred in that judgment.

Txp is Zen-like and a bit contrarian. Coolio. This is not incompatible with fun and bucks.

Sorry that I’m not proposing solutions here – well, I did propose the biggest, didn’t I? A road map.

The devs have to sign-on to that first and mean it. It could certainly include trusted members of the community as well. With respect, no Txp star is going to replace Dean. That’s okay. A team can do that; a road map can express their vision together.

That would be awesome.

I say the devs have-to and I mean that. Staying positive (it isn’t hard, it’s sincere), my encouragement would be: that’s a huge win-win for you guys too – including consulting revenue well-deserved for your skills and efforts. The loss in placing risky stakes in the feature and scheduling ground over the next year to two will be amply repaid.

Last edited by RussLipton (2006-02-23 21:25:37)

neutrino · 2006-02-23 20:26:21

> alexandra wrote:

To me textpattern.com needs as professional redesign. The current one is not really attractive.
The new design should be light, friendly and easy to assign so other international users can set up a textpattern site in their country/ for their country.

Seconded. It’s the flagship and if anyone here uses TXP for anything more than a hobby the main site wouldn’t alert anyone to that.

hcgtv · 2006-02-23 21:41:54

RussLipton wrote:
This is why Expression Engines is a safer investment for my serious projects. Commercial vendors are not always evil; sometimes, they are stable.

I tend to disagree, look what happened to pMachine, it’s a dead-end unless you make the jump to EE.

I would rather have full control of the source code than rely on a few commercial programmers, no matter how dedicated or gifted they are. If TXP, Drupal or name your system closed doors tomorrow, development can and would continue, cause we all own the source, it’s in the GPL community.

I’ve been burned in the past by relying on closed source companies, so for me, Open Source is just the remedy. Even if Rick is giving EE core away for free, I’ll stick with GPL, thanks.

Integrate Textpattern with PunBB, add in a slimmed down Gallery and we’re cooking with GPL ;)

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 21:49:39

hegtv:

Good point. I should have said there are no safe bets.

I would say EE tried to do right by its pMachine users, consistent with an intelligent and intelligible road map. I can live with that kind of process. And I like that the source code for EE is available for full use (short of resale). I believe if the company crashed they would release the source code for GPL.

Anyway, my nose tells me EE has five years of future commitment and stretch ahead of it (a tech lifetime) but hey … roll them dice.

hcgtv · 2006-02-23 22:14:39

Russ,

No, there are no safe bets, agreed.

EE has about 5 more years before they get all the modules done, where’s that E-Commerce module ;)

Though we’re a bit off-topic, I think it’s relevant to this thread to point out that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

alexandra · 2006-02-23 22:25:45

> hcgtv wrote:

> point out that the grass is not always greener on the other side

though it is greener with money :)

Dean did talk about TextBase once. Does anybody remember that?

zem · 2006-02-23 22:30:39

The whole point of the opensource thing is feeding from user’s suggestions to make the app more usable, user-oriented and thus often better than the commercial competition. Same goes for designers input, as I said, as far as accessiblity, templating or hunt for hardcoded styles in the code. Also same goes for plugin writers, adding features and expandability to your software. Not to mention bug reports.

Not true. Open Source is just a development method. If there’s one thing no software project has a shortage of, it’s user suggestions. Commercial or open source makes no difference. Likewise for community, plugins, add-ons and so on. Proprietary software has those things too.

Textpattern has a lively community because it is good, not because it is open source.

Also, I think TXP is a very zen thing…

Perhaps the truest thing said here. Not writing code can be very productive, if it’s the right code.

Some of the most important innovations over the past 6 months or so have been entirely behind the scenes. Testing in particular. New features, lines of code, announcements are not the only measures of success.

Call me an optimist, but I think people are pretty good at understanding and protecting their own best interests. Give the developers a little credit. And have a little faith. Some things take time.

nardo · 2006-02-23 22:33:22

personally I’ve always liked the vibe around textpattern – I read the word ‘contrarian’, maybe a bit like that, but with more nous and humour – and zem zen… and the lack of themes and a theme engine perhaps the best thing about it : ) I accept wet’s point (that the themes encourage take-up and provide financial reward for a theme-developer group) but disagree that txp is a design wasteland… I think the base install only encourages creativity. I’m also not convinced that there needs to be an umbrella design or consistent branding across txp-related sites… I think they all have the vibe anyway… (in addition I’ve always liked Dean’s design sense with the main site & forum – WP is plain ugly).

then again, from a layman’s view, it does seem if the committed/talented plugin devs could be given more assistance to assist with core code – understanding that creating patch-queues or other open funnels to dump code not rigorously tested is only eating into valuable development time … and users who request features understand now (I think) that they need to demonstrate their case clearly and comprehensively – whether it be rss feeds, etc

just going back to what maniqui said – there are advantages to not being WP or MT (smaller community, less junk) – but obviously we all have different ideas of what txp is / could be

personally I think the manual works great for hard facts, the faq for solutions to everyday issues, and the forum for taking up the slack (not everyone knows how to ask the right question to get the right answer) … I admit to being unaware there was some concern among key members of the community; so I don’t dismiss this topic at all and say it is unfounded… just my comments…

Jeremie · 2006-02-23 22:54:01

zem wrote:
Call me an optimist, but I think people are pretty good at understanding and protecting their own best interests. Give the developers a little credit. And have a little faith. Some things take time.

Ok, it’s now very clear Zem’s account has been hacked.

Or possibly he has been captured by little grey aliens and replace with a doppleganger.

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 23:31:57

“Not writing code can be very productive, if it’s the right code.”

Heh. So true. One reason I love the TxP way. Trust us, we feel it.

But surely Zen is not incompatible with communication, however enigmatic. And, of course, there has been much over the years. Faith in the devs is compatible with the community’s felt (?) need for more visible road-map planning. Indeed, as David reiterated in this thread, this is as much about providing a framework for the community to help predictably as it is about anything with devs – more the former than the latter. But for the former to occur, some sort of predictable communication and goal-ing will be required by key players.

In an open-source project, the hard-sweating devs are never wrong and should never be discouraged. But the same is equally true of the community. Finding the set intersection will determine whether TxP makes it to the next stage or withers.

Alas, Zen is also compatible with (literal) emptiness.

Last edited by RussLipton (2006-02-23 23:35:11)

davidm · 2006-02-24 01:05:39

Jeremie wrote: Ok, it’s now very clear Zem’s account has been hacked. Or possibly he has been captured by little grey aliens and replace with a doppleganger.

lol

A really great one ;D Fun jokes, feels like the old days !
(Sorry guys about the light mood on a not so light subject, it’s late here and it’s been a long day)…

andjules · 2006-02-24 03:44:58

The whole point of the opensource thing is feeding from user’s suggestions to make the app more usable, user-oriented

ummm, kind of. but not usually. open source projects have a tendency to have a ‘built by developers, for developers’ feel – too many features, too many mindsets, not enough clearly-defined levels, and a whole lot of duct tape holding clunky interfaces together. As much as TXP sometimes suffered from Dean’s singular vision, it is the singularity that has kept TXP fairly simple, fairly elegant, fairly usable.

so my 2 cents:
textpattern has generally appealed to folks with some HTML/CSS prowess, even some PHP (it’s weak compared to other blogs/CMSs for ‘off-the-shelf-instant-blogs’), but also folks with a soft spot for the lightweight, less-is-more mindset. The plugin approach, and the soon-to-come ‘elements’ approach help keep TXP’s core light.
Whatever the outcome of this discussion (and I think this discussion is great), please, let’s keep it light, streamlined, not another open source, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink project. The world already has Mambo/Joomla, for better or worse. It already has Drupal – a good thing, if you want to get neck deep.

Last edited by andjules (2006-02-24 03:45:32)

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#73 2006-02-23 20:21:03

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#74 2006-02-23 20:26:21

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#75 2006-02-23 21:41:54

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#76 2006-02-23 21:49:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#77 2006-02-23 22:14:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#78 2006-02-23 22:25:45

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#79 2006-02-23 22:30:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#80 2006-02-23 22:33:22

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#81 2006-02-23 22:54:01

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#82 2006-02-23 23:31:57

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#83 2006-02-24 01:05:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#84 2006-02-24 03:44:58

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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