[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Jeremie · 2006-02-23 17:20:41

colak wrote:
The dev team should become partners with textdrive. I know it is up to dean to say it but ¢∞§¶ The devs do put a lot of work on this beautiful software.

In theory, they are. TXD does give 50% of the hostings fees to a chosen open source software, Textpattern was the first. But I don’t know if it’s going back to Alex, Pedro and Sencer. But that’s some money, certainly not enough to live on but it’s not negligible.

TXD also host Textpattern, and can host things related too I think.

Last edited by Jeremie (2006-02-23 17:22:32)

Maleika E.A. · 2006-02-23 18:06:21

If anything, this all feels very unsettling to me I must admit.

hakjoon · 2006-02-23 18:12:32

Jeremie wrote:
And it takes time to manage a patch queue. You have to rate them, explain in details. The gang of four hasn’t been able to setup a working ticket thing for the bugs report (;p) despite several attempts, so a patch queue I don’t believe it. Imo, this is a “too much” one.

The thing about the patch queue that I like is that it allows the community to do some of the lifting before the core dev team needs to look at stuff. There are community members that are familiar enough with the underpinnings of TXP to evaluate if the patch will open security holes etc. Also even someone who doesn’t know how to code for TXP would be capable of learning to apply a patch, see if causes undesirable behavior and report back.

Think of how many members of this forum probably learned how to use SVN for the first time to keep up with the RCs. As the number of people willing to do this grows the less time the core dev team has to spend reviewing patches. Ideally they would only have to review ones that have gone through a preliminary community QA process. If you look in the Drupal forums you will see that one of the things that affects decisions to include patches to the core is how much QA the proposed patch has gone through. It better leverages the community decreasing the burden on the core team.

Yes it’s not going to happen tomorrow, and it would require something to be put into place but I think the idea has merit in regards to distributing the burden of development.

Last edited by hakjoon (2006-02-23 18:13:35)

alexandra · 2006-02-23 18:16:02

I do not feel comfortable as well, i admitt. Though i know for sure i would feel worse in a couple of weeks, not knowing where things go with TXP and if all the work/effort i put into the project is worth the time i spend on it.

Then again all folks debating here are really dedicated to the project. Hope comes up… :)

davidm · 2006-02-23 18:20:20

hakjoon wrote: Let me detract from the doom and gloom direction that this discussion seems to have swerved to for a second. If you compare the state of things when ubernostrom’s road map post was crafted to how things are now you will see that there are a number of very positive things that have happened. (…) These are all very positive developments. I agree that there still seems to be a lack of knowing where things are going but I think that might change as 4.1 becomes more concrete.

I admit I have dropped out the past 4 months, thanks for making some things clear to me that I hadn’t seen. I am not saying there is no reason for being positive. Crockery is certainly heading the right way, nested sections and Elements is something that I very much expect… it’s just that I have a hard time grasping what the changes will be aside from that.

Maleika E.A. wrote: If anything, this all feels very unsettling to me I must admit.

You mean it comes as a surprise ? Or you feel this is totally inappropriate ?

alexandra wrote: I do not feel comfortable as well, i admitt. Though i know for sure i would feel worse in a couple of weeks, not knowing where things go with TXP and if all the work/effort i put into the project is worth the time i spend on it. Then again all folks debating here are really dedicated to the project. Hope comes up… :)

Exactly.

Don’t think we have started this thread lightly, we have debated puslishing it, how to best go about it for a while now. Alex has talked to Dean. It was not easy to decide to raise what we felt were issues… and not easy actually raising them.

We did it because we care… and yes, there is hope !

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-23 18:29:00)

Maleika E.A. · 2006-02-23 18:32:10

Hi David,

what I meant is that I do not feel comfortable with the overall impact these news have on me (yes, it does come as a surprise to me as I don’t surf the forums on a daily basis). I applaud your efforts and those of everyone else of course, and while no OS project can ever be considered “safe”, I am not sure I’d be comfortable to continue using TXP as my first choice for larger projects, unless – of course – some of the issues you have mentioned get resolved.

alexandra · 2006-02-23 18:33:19

I refer to neutrinos post

I completely agree with him on:

Last but not least, we need someone or a group to coordinate all this into a coherent whole.
Have we considered a reorganization of all the major sites to consolidate efforts?
There are too many separate projects that when one person drops off a big, big loss is felt in community spirit and functionality.

Last edited by alexandra (2006-02-23 18:36:41)

hakjoon · 2006-02-23 18:44:35

davidm wrote:
I admit I have dropped out the past 4 months, thanks for making some things clear to me that I hadn’t seen. I am not saying there is no reason for being positive. […] it’s just that I have a hard time grasping what the changes will be aside from that.

I just saw this devolving into another “we want more” “you have no right to demand more” back and forth, and I didn’t interpret that as the motivation behind this thread. So I just wanted to point out all the great developments that have happened.

The future of TXP is greatly unknown (at least to me) and I think that is what spurred this discussion. It’s not wanting more, it’s having some idea of what to expect and in many ways I’m seeing a general sense of “how can we help with things, how can we leverage this great group to better serve the project”. Let us help.

We did it because we care…

This, I think, is the most important point. Everyone is here because they care about this project and this discussion should approached through that filter.

neutrino · 2006-02-23 18:59:23

> alexandra wrote:

> I refer to neutrinos post

I completely agree with him on:

Last but not least, we need someone or a group to coordinate all this into a coherent whole.
Have we considered a reorganization of all the major sites to consolidate efforts?
There are too many separate projects that when one person drops off a big, big loss is felt in community spirit and functionality.

:D alexandra, actually it’s “her” but don’t tell anyone else, ok? (I like being a neutrino, ya know?) and I think the first point, “last but not least” was David’s (I was trying to quote him). I am glad someone agrees about major site reorg. I would love to hear ideas about how that might happen, if it could happen. I posted a PDF over on my site listing a rough idea of how I’ve been thinking about how to organize “us”.

We are convinced Textpattern has to figure out new paths in its development in the near future. This will be a challenge – though a positive one.

There’s a lot to digest in this thread. I just wanted to highlight this point from the first post and nominate it as a # 1 goal/vision and second that it is VERY POSITIVE.

Last edited by neutrino (2006-02-23 19:06:00)

alexandra · 2006-02-23 19:14:44

> neutrino wrote:

> :D alexandra, actually it’s “her” but don’t tell anyone else, ok?

whispering : i will not talk about though i am happy for every femal turning up here. at times i am so tired of the males tec language. but do not tell anybody either please ;)

[i come back to your posts content and pdf later on]

alexandra · 2006-02-23 20:00:27

neutriono sais: I am glad someone agrees about major site reorg. I would love to hear ideas about how that might happen, if it could happen

My ideas about a reorganization of TXP sites are:

textpattern.com is entrance page linking to all other sites (including textpattern.ru, textpattern.sk…)
textgarden, texpattern.org and textpattern.co get a cooperative design
a professional plugindatabase should be added to textpattern.com

To me textpattern.com needs as professional redesign. The current one is not really attractive.
The new design should be light, friendly and easy to assign so other international users can set up a textpattern site in their country/ for their country.

segfault · 2006-02-23 20:01:01

I’ve been a TxP user for almost 2 years now but almost never post on the forum as I see a lot of help already. Anyway, I find myself depending on TxP, Typo3, and now delving silently on MODx and finding each very useful in their own respects. I have also seen that the forums have changed atmosphere. Before we had Dean as our benevolent dictator but his departure has left a “power vaccum” if you will. Devs will add what they feel the software needs or something they find interesting and not necessarily what makes the most sense at the time. I know, I am one.

What is needed then is not only a dev team, but a core team as David, Alexandra, and others have said. I for one would like to volunteer as maybe a forum coordinator or maybe a release organizer as I have little time for a major role. I like TxP too much for it to fall into disarray.

I would also like to stress that I think TxP releases with and without Dean have been outstanding. But we need to focus and get some direction as we spend time on our own without a benevolent dictator.

RussLipton · 2006-02-23 20:21:03

I too have used Txp for almost two years; rarely posted. I am a heavier user of EE now and also exploring ModX seriously.

I do feel Txp has moved very s….l….owly, yet it is so elegant I haven’t minded much. However, the departure of Dean and the lack of a road map is leading me strongly away from Txp. I see this thread as way long overdue and quite positive in spirit.

Road maps are perilous because they bind devs to their word (often negatively experienced, especially when one is not salaried) but, put more positively, they bind together a community. This may be the price the devs have to pay if their passion for Txp remains intense.

For instance, without roles, I cannot use Txp for serious use cases; my Txp use remains trivial. It wouldn’t bother me way too much if a date of summer, 2007 was put on it and it was delivered in winter, 2008 so long as I knew it was coming and had periodic comfort reports. I might still use other stuff in the meanwhile but I would keep my long-term use of Txp as a valuable part of my toolkit alive.

The notion of an ‘economy’ for Txp is more important than has perhaps been realized by this very special community. That can consist of intangible rewards, as we know, but those, even more than bucks, have to yield tons-o-fun. I notice how many acknowledge with realistic sadness a decline in fun since the early days. Right. Always happens, as DavidM notes – hence a thread like this one. But we should also acknowledge the need to pump back in the fun. It can be done.

Money, which comes in handy in the real world (pace Jimmy Stewart), also produces loyalty once the initial passions cool. This is why Expression Engines is a safer investment for my serious projects. Commercial vendors are not always evil; sometimes, they are stable. I had foreseen TextDrive as a stability generator for Txp development. I think I erred in that judgment.

Txp is Zen-like and a bit contrarian. Coolio. This is not incompatible with fun and bucks.

Sorry that I’m not proposing solutions here – well, I did propose the biggest, didn’t I? A road map.

The devs have to sign-on to that first and mean it. It could certainly include trusted members of the community as well. With respect, no Txp star is going to replace Dean. That’s okay. A team can do that; a road map can express their vision together.

That would be awesome.

I say the devs have-to and I mean that. Staying positive (it isn’t hard, it’s sincere), my encouragement would be: that’s a huge win-win for you guys too – including consulting revenue well-deserved for your skills and efforts. The loss in placing risky stakes in the feature and scheduling ground over the next year to two will be amply repaid.

Last edited by RussLipton (2006-02-23 21:25:37)

neutrino · 2006-02-23 20:26:21

> alexandra wrote:

To me textpattern.com needs as professional redesign. The current one is not really attractive.
The new design should be light, friendly and easy to assign so other international users can set up a textpattern site in their country/ for their country.

Seconded. It’s the flagship and if anyone here uses TXP for anything more than a hobby the main site wouldn’t alert anyone to that.

hcgtv · 2006-02-23 21:41:54

RussLipton wrote:
This is why Expression Engines is a safer investment for my serious projects. Commercial vendors are not always evil; sometimes, they are stable.

I tend to disagree, look what happened to pMachine, it’s a dead-end unless you make the jump to EE.

I would rather have full control of the source code than rely on a few commercial programmers, no matter how dedicated or gifted they are. If TXP, Drupal or name your system closed doors tomorrow, development can and would continue, cause we all own the source, it’s in the GPL community.

I’ve been burned in the past by relying on closed source companies, so for me, Open Source is just the remedy. Even if Rick is giving EE core away for free, I’ll stick with GPL, thanks.

Integrate Textpattern with PunBB, add in a slimmed down Gallery and we’re cooking with GPL ;)

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#61 2006-02-23 17:20:41

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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