[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

davidm · 2006-02-23 16:07:39

Reid, you indeed make valid points but on the wrong target : we’re greatly misunderstood here if anyone thinks we asked more of the dev team in terms of work.

Actually, it’s quite the other way around : we offer our time and efforts to make things better. In return we want to be able to do just that and right now it means asking the “people in charge” to give access to some existing resources (such as having some admins and moderators added)

The only effort we ask is more communication, assign roles more effectively and split the work with people outside the dev team. That requires losing some control over things, on this I agree. But I think (as discussed above) that some task should not burden the dev team. And that we need more coordination (see the project boards suggestion above).

If anything, we just want a more democratic structure in which every contributor can be given responsiblity and access to that effect

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-23 16:10:09)

Jeremie · 2006-02-23 16:27:33

davidm wrote:
If anything, we just want a more democratic structure in which every contributor can be given responsiblity and access to that effect

Wrong choice of words I believe. You don’t seem to want a “more democratic structure”, you just want some structure.

maniqui · 2006-02-23 16:30:15

I have the feeling that the dev team (zem, kusor, sencer) is working very hard and with enthusiasm for the next TXP release.
Will it be 4.0.4 or maybe TXP will jump directly to 4.1?
I dont care! I’m pretty sure it will be another great release… we just need to wait a bit and see and then, enjoy.

I like TXP where it is… and as Jeremie said about that TXP is where it is now… and it reached this point without any roadmap, without the best homepage (I like textpattern.com!), and without the nicest default theme (i like it too), but with one of the most wonderful open source communities.
That said, I repeat what hcgtv in another thread: this is just starting.

I’m not saying that nothing has to change. I would like to see the dev team growing with people like mary or hakjoon or wilshire or rsilletti or Manfre or Remillard (he invented mdn_if_section!! well, he seems to be far from the community, but I have seen he has relaunched moae.org, so hope is not lost, and hope to see him around here more often)
So, is anything wrong with expanding the dev team? I dont know if that is the “solution”, and I dont know if it is good for a dev team to grow in number… but I would say that inviting one or two of the names I posted above to join to the dev team <small>*edit*</small> ~~can~~ cant be warmful at all!

Also, I think TXP is a very zen thing… i would bet that the dev team practice tai-chi-chuan… when they should be coding! ;)
No, really, I’m serious. Slow (if slow…) moving isnt bad at all. I know a place where people walks slowly.
And I dont believe that TXP development is slow… look at Drupal.org, or even at MODx site. I see the same number version from months ago… or am I wrong?
And what about the default theme? It’s very zen… and it could be both an education and a filter.
I can imagine someone lookint at the default TXP theme saying:
“hey, is that the most you can do with TXP? Hahaha… this little script cant do anything good… I want more! I would prefer to use Drupal or phpNuke than this weak script that doesnt do anything.”

Of course this script doesnt do “anything”… you have to do it all It’s like to have a beautiful empty notepad and some incredible pencils at hand. You can draw whatever you want with them.
There, we have sites like joshuaink.com, hickdesign.co.uk, uxmag, and the beautiful templates that thebomsite does, and there is more out there.
You can do blogs, corporate sites, photoblogs, you can even experiment and play and have fun with TXP.

I wont like to see an overpopulated forum complaining that TXP doesnt do what other scripts do or that they site doesnt look like some super-mega-cool default theme that comes with TXP.
I like this small-medium community growing slowly and showing what they actually can do with TXP… where it is now.

Also, this lack of information, road-map, etc… it’s a bit mysterious… but I like surprises.

I dont like at all the idea of a fork! dont scare me!
Please, keep all our efforts here! do not divide this magic community.
If the wheel stops moving some day, then, let’s do a fork. But I dont think the wheel isnt moving at all.

I would love to donate some bucks, but no money here. That’s why I try fo compensate that by helping at forums.

Sorry for the long post and for my english.

Last edited by maniqui (2006-02-23 16:43:59)

davidm · 2006-02-23 16:31:02

Yeah well we (I am not alone) sure want some structure, but involving more people which is inherently more democratic with say, 12 people than 3. Does it not ?

michaelkpate · 2006-02-23 16:34:21

> davidm wrote:

> If anything, we just want a more democratic structure in which every contributor can be given responsiblity and access to that effect

“A more democratic structure” should not be the goal; the oligarchy just needs to elavate a few key members of the proletariat.

Last edited by michaelkpate (2006-02-23 20:20:20)

neutrino · 2006-02-23 16:36:34

> davidm wrote:

programmers (core development, plugin development, repository management)
designers (logo, website, interface design)
writers (manual, faq, localisation)
board admins and moderators

Last but not least, we need someone or a group to coordinate all this into a coherent whole. Maybe having the teams coordinate via private forums (if you have ideas, shoot !), I mention this because this is the way we work at MODx and it’s running smooth. We have a Test, Release & QA forum, a documentation forum, a Marketing forum… etc, all under a “Project Team” board.

I like how you’re thinking here David. Separate development, direction and growth from using the software. Many would move back and forth but new users could be presented with a product and its purpose and uses.

Have we considered a reorganization of all the major sites to consolidate efforts? For example, it seems to me that the code (both releases and crockery) with the SVN instructions, a plugin repository and core (highly techie) parts of the manual “should” all be on the same site. The revision discussion could move over there too. Then the “how do I”, I’m totally new here discussions could be grouped with Tutorials and templates. That way developers and plugin authors would be in one place. And then the “school and design” site could be away from all that (and discussions like this which could scare off folks-not good for PR).

I just think there are too many separate projects that when one person drops off a big, big loss is felt in community spirit and functionality. (This is 3 times for me—Sivert, Alicson and Mary) Also, assuming that much responsibility is a lot to ask anyone. I really think TXP could benefit from consolidating its websites into 1 or 2 or 3 at the most with common navigation schemes. I would volunteer to work on this if anyone else is interested. I’m already working on a “master” TOC in Freemind that I can export out as a PDF. At the moment I have Documentation, Implementation and Development as the 3 main categories and each would have forums of their own.

And just for the record I hope TXP does not fork. At least not until we throughly go through “therapy”. I want “the family” to work it out. It is a small group of the “committed” now with a few MIAs and so I don’t think the strength is there to fork without attracting new blood—maybe they’re all here now, I don’t know.

alexandra · 2006-02-23 16:47:56

> Jeremie wrote:

> Wrong choice of words I believe. You don’t seem to want a “more democratic structure”, you just want some structure.

:))) nice and kind of dry humor ;) sweet

davidm · 2006-02-23 16:48:18

maniqui wrote: I have the feeling that the dev team (zem, kusor, sencer) is working very hard and with enthusiasm for the next TXP release. Will it be 4.0.4 or maybe TXP will jump directly to 4.1? I dont care! I’m pretty sure it will be another great release… we just need to wait a bit and see and then, enjoy.

Yeah well we are in agreement here ?
Once again, we are not talking release cycle or development issues.

We are talking community, sharing roles and responsibilities. In Short, not having only a dev team, but also documentation, design… etc. And on top of that, have everyone communicate.

So, is anything wrong with expanding the dev team? I dont know if that is the “solution”, and I dont know if it is good for a dev team to grow in number… but I would say that inviting one or two of the names I posted above to join to the dev team can be warmful at all!

It seems you are totally focused on dev… opensource software is not only dev.
That’s the whole point of what we say…

No, really, I’m serious. Slow (if slow…) moving isnt bad at all. I know a place where people walks slowly.
And I dont believe that TXP development is slow… look at Drupal.org, or even at MODx site. I see the same number version from months ago… or am I wrong?

Never meant development was too slow…
Off topic : Drupal has a rather conservative approach and does release when it’s rock solild tested, so yeah release cycle is rather “slow”. But MODx, my friend, it’s another story those guys have kept a wild pace since they started in march 2005 : check the difference between Etomite and MODx and you’ll see how much has been done in a year. The last release (0.9.1) was december 25th… and 0.9.2 is coming close. That was for the off topic story. Release cycle is irrelevant : some prefer having big releases with lots of improvements, other a more incremental approach. Who cares how many release ? It’s no indication of a project health (unless you have no release at all :P).

There, we have sites like joshuaink.com, hickdesign.co.uk, uxmag, and the beautiful templates that thebomsite does, and there is more out there.

This is all true, though as I said a while ago I crossed John Hicks on Expression Engine’s forum saying he was thinking of switching, had there been an import script…

I dont like at all the idea of a fork! dont scare me! Please, keep all our efforts here! do not divide this magic community. If the wheel stops moving some day, then, let’s do a fork. But I dont think the wheel isnt moving at all.

As a veteran here, I must say the magic has faded more and more it would seem, this is part of the problem too. I am not saying this is not normal, as the beginning of a project is always the most exciting part… but still : something like Mary’s departure (yeah I know, she’s back) would never have happened in the early days… Jokes were flying around on the forums (Dean’s sense of humour certainly helped maintaining a warm and fun ambiance… have a look at textdrive’s forum and you’ll understand).

Maniqui, no need to be scared.
Things are rather constructive right now, and that’s good !

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-23 16:51:26)

hakjoon · 2006-02-23 17:05:04

Let me detract from the doom and gloom direction that this discussion seems to have swerved to for a second.

If you compare the state of things when ubernostrom’s road map post was crafted to how things are now you will see that there are a number of very positive things that have happened.

Sencer joined the team.
we’ve had 4.0 through 4.0.3
the developer’s blog was established
zem has been furiously adding entries to the FAQ
the dev and plugins mailing lists have started (although they are pretty quiet)
we’ve seen peeks of what is too come in crockery (nested sections and elements)
we have the first working group

These are all very positive developments. I agree that there still seems to be a lack of knowing where things are going but I think that might change as 4.1 becomes more concrete.

One thing that I find very cool about Drupal is it’s Patches Queue where patches are posted for community review and criticism, I think it adds a lot to dissuade the I don’t know the status of patches feeling. I’m curious what others think of that and if it could help ease some of the concerns if something like that came into existence. (not that it has to or even should, just throwing out ideas).

Last edited by hakjoon (2006-02-23 17:06:45)

maniqui · 2006-02-23 17:12:53

hi davidm.
After posting, I read some of the last post talking about that the point is not the dev speed. Sorry. I was writing my post and missed those post. That usually happens when one writes long post.

You conviced me. It’s not a matter of dev speed but community organization. But that also implies dev organization.
So, concerning dev team and dev speed: can the dev team grow?

I would like to see the implementation of some of the ideas proposed here. First, Jeremie as an forum admin. He has experience here and he is very helpful.
Maybe hakjoon would like to be an admin too.

We should not be only theory. Let also be action.

This is all true, though as I said a while ago I crossed John Hicks on Expression Engine’s forum saying he was thinking of switching, had there been an import script…

Is he the same guy I saw here four days ago ? ;)

And about Zem’s dry style… I think he is an obscure genius …

colak · 2006-02-23 17:15:16

<blockquote> zem wrote:

> bq. simply can’t convince a dev that their need has any merit

It’s not a matter of convincing the developers of its merit. It’s a matter of convincing the developers that they ought to spend hours, weeks or months working without pay to build something, simply because someone else says they need it.

The core developers aren’t any different to anyone else on the forum in that respect. They don’t get paid to spend time here, fix bugs, troubleshoot problems, write documentation, comply with feature requests, or release new versions. We all do that in our own time.</blockquote>

The dev team should become partners with textdrive. I know it is up to dean to say it but ¢∞§¶ The devs do put a lot of work on this beautiful software.

Jeremie · 2006-02-23 17:17:44

I don’t think anyone beside the dev team and a few potential members have the skills & the knowledge to say anything on patches. (that includes me). You just don’t add code here and there without knowing it all, or the whole thing will go south one day or another.

And it takes time to manage a patch queue. You have to rate them, explain in details. The gang of four hasn’t been able to setup a working ticket thing for the bugs report (;p) dispite several attempts, so a patch queue I don’t believe it. Imo, this is a “too much” one.

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#49 2006-02-23 16:07:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#50 2006-02-23 16:27:33

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#51 2006-02-23 16:30:15

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#52 2006-02-23 16:31:02

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#53 2006-02-23 16:34:21

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#54 2006-02-23 16:36:34

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#55 2006-02-23 16:47:56

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#56 2006-02-23 16:48:18

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#57 2006-02-23 17:05:04

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#58 2006-02-23 17:12:53

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#59 2006-02-23 17:15:16

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#60 2006-02-23 17:17:44

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Board footer