Alternative to <h1>

Nichod · 2005-12-07 15:39:57

Bombsite discussed that its not recommended to use h1 or that he doesn’t recommend it. What would be a good alternative?

Last edited by Nichod (2005-12-07 15:41:48)

els · 2005-12-07 16:24:01

Try to determine what level your heading is, then use h2, h3 or whatever is appropriate. h1 should be reserved for your site’s title. W3C.

Niconemo · 2005-12-07 16:31:33

It can be interpreted in very different ways though…

h1 is the first level heading of the document… so if the page title actually is the article title (that is if the site name is not on the page) h1 fits for article title. On most blog or corporate sites h1 is the site name, on some documentation site, h1 can be the article title. The only thing to remember is that h1 is the highest level (which is quite logical) and that there can (and must) be only one h1 per page.

Last edited by Niconemo (2005-12-07 16:36:38)

Nichod · 2005-12-07 16:41:23

I decided class was the best method.

Jeremie · 2005-12-07 17:09:13

Nichod wrote:
Bombsite discussed that its not recommended to use h1 or that he doesn’t recommend it. What would be a good alternative?

Bombsite is wrong :p

If h1 and title were the same thing, well h1 or title wouldn’t exist. h1 is the first level heading of your document, it can be used without trouble.

THe issue with TXP/Textile is that on an individual article page, h1 is used for the article’s title. So it can be confusing to re-use it within the article.

Other CMS deal with this by automatically increment the headings withing an article.

thebombsite · 2005-12-07 20:07:48

I knew I should have kept quiet. Actually I suggested that using h1 for the article title wasn’t a very good idea not that it shouldn’t be used at all. First off, there are probably more important things on the page such as the site title that would warrant the h1, and second, if used for the article title it would probably end up being used several times on the same page. Thus, this was a wrong usage for the h1 tag in this instance. I think I’m right. I’m open to argument though. :)

Nichod · 2005-12-08 19:38:07

All I know is that class worked just as well in this case. I understand where Stuart is going in regards to the h1 tag. I’m not an expert at CSS yet, but I’m learning and I’d have to agree that h1 seems to be a tag that is used in a specific function and it makes more sense that it be used in the site title.

On a side note I’m in love with how wonderful TXP is in giving full control of layout to the point that keeping the site compliant is incredibly easy. My site is currently STRICT and I’m loving it.

Jeremie · 2005-12-09 01:56:10

h1 can perfectly be used several times on a single webpage. Nothing wrong with that.

Niconemo · 2005-12-09 08:24:59

TheBombsite, depending on the strcuture of the site, we can perfectly have h1 for an article title when it’s a single article page and h2 when it’s an article list.

Personnaly, Jeremie, I think there must be only one h1 per page/document (on the web or in a paper document, a poster… it’s a very basic stylesheet rule and stylesheets used to exist long before Internet) But it should reflect as far as possible the content of the page. In a blog or a portal site the site name will do… but in lots of sites the article title would be considered as the ideal h1 ;-)

For example, if I have kind of very simple database site called “Animals of the french Alps” :

The h1 in the home-page would be the site name
“Mammals”, “birds”, … can be h2

The h1 in a section or category page would be “Mammals”, “birds”, …
(with a breadcrumb at the top)
“marmot”, “ibex”, “eagle”… (animal names) can be h2

The h1 in an article page would be “marmot”, “ibex”, “eagle”…
(with a breadcrumb too)

It is possible with textpattern and ideal and clean as for referencing as structural logic and accessibility

In fact as the rule is “there must be only one h1 per document”. The question is :
Is each page considered as a single document in my site ?
Or is each page considered as a part of a big virtual document which is the site itself ?
Then it is very easy to define what is the h1.

There are (fortunately) so many kinds of websites that is is impossible to have a single answer to such a question.

Last edited by Niconemo (2005-12-09 08:39:27)

thebombsite · 2005-12-09 12:16:34

If it were a single article I wouldn’t disagree with you Niconemo but you have to remember that this thread has been taken out of context and when I gave the original advice I was under the impression that it would get repeated, thus I suggested the h2 instead. :)

Having said that, I still think your site title is more important than an article title, and even if there were only a single article on a page that did not have your site title displayed, I would still consider using a “hidden” h1 near the top of the page containing the site title and still use h2 for the article. But that’s just me.

Niconemo · 2005-12-09 15:52:06

> thebombsite wrote:
> If it were a single article I wouldn’t disagree with you Niconemo but you have to remember that this thread has been taken out of context and when I gave the original advice I was under the impression that it would get repeated, thus I suggested the h2 instead. :)

;) OK. It is actually a context sensitive question.

paularms · 2005-12-12 03:46:57

Using the h1 tag for your site title, logo, etc… doesn’t seem logical on any page but your main page. If you are using it on an “article” page for the title of the site, you are saying that that page can be summed up in a few words as your site and that everything below it is everything that your site has to offer. By strategically using the title tag in your head by placing your site title in it, along with the page title, you are telling search engines and people who bookmark the page what the site is and what is on the page.

Taken from Section 7.5.5 of the HTML 4.01 spec (emphasis placed by me)

A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically.

Last edited by paularms (2005-12-12 03:47:32)

aesop1 · 2005-12-12 04:24:04

Andy Budd says it best after referencing the same W3C spec that Paul mentions above (emphasis is mine) . . . <blockquote>
The purpose of the heading element therefore is to describe the structure and content of the current page, not to describe the structure of the site or how this particular page fits into a larger hierarchy. By using the H1 element to link a document to a group of documents the web author is almost trying to create their own meta data. [ . . . ] <br /><br />

A lot of web authors also mistakenly believe that there should only be a single h1 per page. This makes sense if all the information on the page is about a single subject but it makes less sense if the page has groups of unconnected information. For instance, this article is primarily about headings, however the side bar contains unrelated information. Unfortunately because the sidebar doesn’t have it’s own h1, this information is structurally considered part of the headings article, even though it has nothing to do with it.
</blockquote>

Jeremie, therefore, is correct when he says that there can be multiple h1 headings per web page. The hierarchy is contextual to the web page itself, not the web site structure.

BTW, in terms of actual TXP practice, I tend to use SITE TITLE: [SECTION TITLE] : [ARTICLE TITLE] for my page titles depending on whether I am in a section list or an actual article. <code><txp:page_title /></code> typically doesn’t cut it by its lonesome, so I end up using conditionals to write the <code><title>title element</title></code>

Last edited by aesop1 (2005-12-12 04:51:14)

Niconemo · 2005-12-12 06:44:10

For instance, this article is primarily about headings, however the side bar contains unrelated information. Unfortunately because the sidebar doesn’t have it’s own h1, this information is structurally considered part of the headings article, even though it has nothing to do with it.

This example is very interesting… While dealing with xhtml structure for a page, we probably all ask ourself that question…

If I could rank this thread I would set it to five stars. All these point of view are very, very, interesting. I’ll probably make up my mind on some poinst… and I like it ! ;-)

There is probably not one single answer, but we have to know what we do and to be coherent within a website.

Last edited by Niconemo (2005-12-12 06:46:00)

thebombsite · 2005-12-12 11:38:54

Therein lies the problem Nico, everybody has their own opinions about this but that’s all they are – opinions. There don’t appear to be any hard and fast rules. For example my h1 does not contain my site name only. Neither does my “title” tag in the head. Aesop1 suggests the use of “SITE TITLE: [SECTION TITLE] : [ARTICLE TITLE]” whereas I would suggest that a better ordering would be “[ARTICLE TITLE] : SITE TITLE : [SECTION TITLE]” so there’s another idea for you to ponder on. :)

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#1 2005-12-07 15:39:57

Alternative to <h1>

#2 2005-12-07 16:24:01

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#3 2005-12-07 16:31:33

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#4 2005-12-07 16:41:23

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#5 2005-12-07 17:09:13

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#6 2005-12-07 20:07:48

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#7 2005-12-08 19:38:07

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#8 2005-12-09 01:56:10

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#9 2005-12-09 08:24:59

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#10 2005-12-09 12:16:34

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#11 2005-12-09 15:52:06

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#12 2005-12-12 03:46:57

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#13 2005-12-12 04:24:04

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#14 2005-12-12 06:44:10

Re: Alternative to <h1>

#15 2005-12-12 11:38:54

Re: Alternative to <h1>

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