Textpattern CMS support forum
You are not logged in. Register | Login | Help
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
Markdown as default text converter on new installations, Textile for existing installations.
Controversial, yes…but Markdown has the edge for legibility and is more widely-known. Textile can handle more complex layouts, so it’s there when needed. From a purely PR point of view, if a new Textpattern user already knows some Markdown, the barrier to learning & adoption is lower.
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
gaekwad wrote #340156:
Markdown as default text converter on new installations, Textile for existing installations.
Controversial, yes…but Markdown has the edge for legibility and is more widely-known. Textile can handle more complex layouts, so it’s there when needed. From a purely PR point of view, if a new Textpattern user already knows some Markdown, the barrier to learning & adoption is lower.
That is indeed very controversial! I wouldn’t have it as a default but as a preference which could be set during installation.
The articles should of course maintain the option to select between leave text untouched, convert linebreaks, textile, and markdown, but I’m not sure as to how much we will bloat the db.
Yiannis
——————————
NeMe | hblack.art | EMAP | A Sea change | Toolkit of Care
I do my best editing after I click on the submit button.
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
gaekwad wrote #340156:
Markdown as default text converter on new installations, Textile for existing installations.
I like it. But concur with Yiannis that I’d prefer to offer a choice during installation.
I did actualy have a go (aaaages ago) at merging wet_textfilter_markdown into core. Got 98% of the way there but hit a roadblock and can’t for the life of me remember what it was now. It seems like it’d be trivial, and not much code.
colak wrote #340162:
I’m not sure as to how much we will bloat the db.
No more bloat than Textile would. In terms of filesystem space, it’s another file in /vendors.
The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.
Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
gaekwad wrote #340156:
Markdown as default text converter on new installations, Textile for existing installations.
I strongly disagree with making Markdown the default in the future. That feels real dirty and gross, and not really ethical within the original philosophy of this project.
I would eventually agree to see Markdown installed by default as an option (next to “Leave text untouched“ and “Convert line breaks”). But I would it make available as a plugin – installed by default but as with any other plugin, removable (and then available for re-download, as com-MD plugin).
ref more widely known? citation needed. Appart from a small group of programmers and aficionados of the Apple PR blogger is there really a wide active audience?
ref more readable or legible? Headlines alone are unreadable in MD, compared to Textile (### vs h3.). The only saving grace for MD is that it works better (as in, less bad) with non-western languages for inline markup – esp Chinese, Japanese, Korean. But MD has a very limited arsenal of inline markup tools compared to Textile
Where is that emoji for a solar powered submarine when you need it ?
Sand space – admin theme for Textpattern
phiw13 on Codeberg
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
phiw13 wrote #340172:
I would it make available as a plugin – installed by default
An officially sanctioned com_markdown plugin could work, if Robert doesn’t mind us stealing his code.
Wish I had the time to dedicate to developing Textup *sighs wistfully*
The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.
Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
Bloke wrote #340175:
Wish I had the time to dedicate to developing Textup sighs wistfully
Yes Yes yes yes 👏
Come on, Amaterasu and all the deities in the pantheon… hear us and multiply time by 19!
Last edited by phiw13 (Yesterday 07:56:17)
Where is that emoji for a solar powered submarine when you need it ?
Sand space – admin theme for Textpattern
phiw13 on Codeberg
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
phiw13 wrote #340172:
ref more widely known? citation needed. Appart from a small group of programmers and aficionados of the Apple PR blogger is there really a wide active audience?
This comes over as pretty snarky. I don’t know if that was the intention, or perhaps borne out of my (admittedly controversial) idea, but I’m assuming good faith on your part. I’ll attempt a citation in good faith.
Disclaimer: I’m not a Gruber reader / fan, or an Apple fanboy.
Disclosure: anecdotally, I write broadly equal amounts of Textile & Markdown. n=1.
There is considerably more support for Markdown in applications compared to Textile. This could be driven by increased userbase awareness (e.g. “give them what they want” etc) or other factors (e.g. it’s relatively well-supported elsewhere and could be cribbed / borrowed for reuse).
There are currently 800+ plugins Wordpress plugins mentioning ‘markdown’ in their directory. There are currently 16 Wordpress plugins mentioning ‘textile’.
GitHub currently reports 165M ‘language:Markdown’ compared to 72K ‘language:Textile’.
Drupal’s Markdown project currently has 50+ stars, its Textile project currently has 1.
Backdrop’s Markdown Filter has 64 live installs compared to 4 on Textile
Textmate’s textile.tmbundle currently has 13 stars, 7 forks and 3 watchers. Textmate’s markdown.tmbundle has 127 stars, 91 forks and 16 watchers.
There are currently 127 ‘textile’ questions on StackOverflow compared to 9K ‘markdown’ questions on StackOverflow
Markdown has its own MIME / media type: www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7763.html. Markdown has its own subreddit: old.reddit.com/r/Markdown/. Textile has neither of these things.
These CMS platforms support Markdown but not Textile (I couldn’t locate a supported method, at least): Ghost, TinaCMS, Strapi, Typemill, Decap, Kirby, Umbraco and Grav.
The only platforms I’m aware of that default to or prioritise Textile are Redmine and Textpattern.
ref more readable or legible? Headlines alone are unreadable in MD, compared to Textile (
###vsh3.). The only saving grace for MD is that it works better (as in, less bad) with non-western languages for inline markup – esp Chinese, Japanese, Korean. But MD has a very limited arsenal of inline markup tools compared to Textile
‘Readable’ / ‘legible’ is subjective, so I’ll retract my comment on legibility in favour of clarifying that for me Markdown has the edge for legibility. This is in a similar vein to you saying:
Headlines alone are unreadable in MD, compared to Textile (
###vsh3.).
Respectfully, calling it ‘unreadable’ is subjective. I can absolutely understand how it could be unreadable for you, especially if there’s years of Textile muscle memory in play. I see three blocks, therefore it’s an H3 heading. To me (<— I clarified this time), it’s easier to process.
I’m not saying remove Textile. I’m not saying do Textile or Markdown. I’m not saying prioritise one behind the scenes to the detriment of of the other. I’m not saying “you will have Markdown whether you like it or not”.
I am saying, in a roundabout kind of way at least, that we have an opportunity in a few years to have a new ‘big’ release with some enhancements over and above the evolutionary changes that go into minor and patch releases. Offering an option to choose Markdown during the install process (hat tip to colak) would be great. Upgrades to existing Textile-powered Textpatterns would keep Textile, that’s the path off least friction.
Someone who’s hacked off with another CMS might find Textpattern and be curious. There’s a learning curve with our way of doing things, but if we can have a tick in the box to say “if you know Markdown, you’re good to go” that’s one fewer things that a author needs to learn. And the whole “just write” philosophy fits here.
I have my 20 year Textpattern anniversary this year. I look at the folks who use Textpattern and the majority of them have been using Textpattern for many years. That’s testament to the people in the community, the standard of discourse, the product itself, all those things…but we’re not getting younger and – I could very well be mistaken here – we’re not overrun by new users. New blood would bring some new perspectives, some new opinions, and some new expertise. The barrier to entry should be lower.
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
Bloke wrote #340175:
An officially sanctioned com_markdown plugin could work, if Robert doesn’t mind us stealing his code.
From memory, and I’ll need to find his post, he’s previously stated the license for his Markdown plugin would allow reuse in Textpattern.
Edit: found it… github.com/textpattern/textpattern/issues/770. There’s also Parsedown linked from that issue.
Last edited by gaekwad (Yesterday 10:27:45)
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
gaekwad wrote #340178:
From memory, and I’ll need to find his post, he’s previously stated the license for his Markdown plugin would allow reuse in Textpattern.
Yes. Alas, this causes two beliefs of mine conflicting:
- Textile >> Markdown.
- GPL allows free sharing and fosters the universe we live in.
‘I see you shiver in an…ti.. ci…pation’, as Dr. Frank-N-Furter says, ascending to his lab.
Offline
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
My two three kopecks:
- Markdown has much wider integration within wysiwyg editors, so switching from md to eventual wysiwyg would be much easier than with Textile.
- But our Textile version is adapted to parsing
<txp:tags />, so one can mix simple text/tags relatively easily. I’m not sure about Markdown here. - BTW, is anyone actually using ‘convert linebreaks’ filter?
Offline
#83 Today 01:14:08
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
gaekwad wrote #340177:
This comes over as pretty snarky.[…]
Snark was not intended, if you read it that way, so be it. I am always surprised by the claims of its (MD) popularity. In the real world, or that/those part(s) where I gravitate, Markdown has little to no appeal. A few development shops with whom I have worked in the past few months, located in 3 different countries (3 in East-Asia one in France), all mentioned that what clients ask is WYSIWG type editors (content editable div and so on) with a button bar at the top. Underlying code is all raw HTML. That is for small and mid-level size businesses.
And given the topic… the subject of that type of editor is also a subject to consider (I don’t really want to mention it, for me that is fully plugin territory.
BTW,
Disclaimer: I’m not a Gruber reader / fan, or an Apple fanboy.
I certainly did not think of you as a fan of the Apple PR blogger :-) Perish that thought (said in Madame de Pompadour voice). I mentioned it as recentish discussion involving his aficionados popped up recently.
Where is that emoji for a solar powered submarine when you need it ?
Sand space – admin theme for Textpattern
phiw13 on Codeberg
Offline
#84 Today 01:25:36
Re: RFC: Textpattern 5 ideas & feature requests
etc wrote #340182:
- But our Textile version is adapted to parsing
<txp:tags />, so one can mix simple text/tags relatively easily. I’m not sure about Markdown here.- BTW, is anyone actually using ‘convert linebreaks’ filter?
I have no problem inserting <txp::shortcode /> type blocks with MD – on their own line(s), separated with blank lines before/after. More I never tried afaik.
I don’t remember using the ‘convert line breaks’ filter for anything except some random testing. The ‘Leave text untouched’ filter I use quite often.
Where is that emoji for a solar powered submarine when you need it ?
Sand space – admin theme for Textpattern
phiw13 on Codeberg
Offline