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#25 2016-09-17 10:36:21

Destry
Member
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,851
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

Bloke is going to code a new markup language, Textup [T↑], the best of both Textile and Markdown, neither of which is perfect in their own right. Textup will take over the universe with its intuitiveness and application. I will gladly write docs for it, using Textup, and learn it as a third markup formatting language in the process. I am already ambidextrous with Textile and Markdown (with a few advanced-use exceptions I need the cheet-sheet for), but I’ll be tri-ambi-destry-ously powerful when Textup courses through my veins.

—-

Oh, I overlooked that mention. :(

Last edited by Destry (2016-09-17 10:39:59)

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#26 2016-09-17 12:26:43

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,721
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

Textile vs Markdown, the duel . . .

!http://thenewswheel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/duel-steven-spielberg.jpg!

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#27 2016-09-17 22:40:48

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

michaelkpate wrote #301547:

You can use Markdown instead of HTML. Markdown is simpler to read and write. – About GitHub Pages and Jekyll

The Textile vs Markdown discussion ahve been intense at times. I’ve never weighed in because I’m on another page entirely. Over the years I’ve come to the conclusion that I may be the only person who doesn’t get the Textile/Markdown wars.

NOT because I don’t see the difference between the two. I find Markdown frustrating with its multiple versions and far less elegant than Textile. I’ll chose Textile over Markdown any day.

Rather, I have always been a bit puzzled by the desire to create one more layer of language and framework in the name of simplicity. So people lobby for a graphical interface because Textile or Markdown are too complex, and people lobbied for Textile and Markdown because html is too complex, and html originally the solution for simple text mark up . . .

Thus we end up with the need for code to interpret html, and then more code to interpret the LML, then more code to translate the graphical interface.

For me, I don’t find html complex. So I don’t find Textile that much more simple. Granted, on some things it’s a bit faster. For a hyperlink as example. But if I didn’t have Textile, I don’t mind dropping back to html at all. In that I only need to know/remember a single mark up language, I actually prefer just html.

In my view, mark up languages are markup languages. If the end user can handle one, they can hand any of them, including the original – html. If they find html too complex, then a light weight markup language isn’t the answer; a WYSIWYG GUI is the only real viable alternative.

But as I said, I’ve come to the conclusion I’m likely the only person of such an opinion. Then again I’m such a Luddite, I still find xml cleaner than json, and prefer my html5 written with xhtml in mind (I like the clear open/close tags). I even prefer my websites as free of JavaScript as possible.

So all that said, Phil, I’m glad you are moving the pophelp to straight html.

And Bert – I do prefer Textile over Markdown, and unless we are going to drop Textile all together, I think Textpattern should give preference to it whenever possible, but that we also need to make room for Markdown, because apparently using two “*” is so much simpler for people than using <b></b> or the xhtml version, <strong></strong>

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#28 2016-09-18 01:13:21

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,721
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

maverick wrote #301597:

And Bert – I do prefer Textile over Markdown, and unless we are going to drop Textile all together, I think Textpattern should give preference to it whenever possible

You can be my wing man any day :)

Seriously though, this project brought Textile into the world, it’s for better or worse, our baby. Textile, template tags, forms, pages, it was all there from the beginning, they go together.

I’m not adverse to bringing Markdown support to Textpattern, we’se civilized around here. I do agree that Textile should get preferential treatment, even have a built in Textile playground in some tab. For new users, I’d opt for a lightweight toolbar, until they wrapped their heads around markup.

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#29 2016-09-18 04:56:44

maverick
Member
From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

hcgtv wrote #301599:

For new users, I’d opt for a lightweight toolbar, until they wrapped their heads around markup.

I hear ya.. Jukka’s rah_textile_bar is part of my default install for other people.

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#30 2016-09-20 08:30:15

candyman
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 684

Re: Textile vs Markdown

I understand that if the world is speaking a language (Markdown) we can’t continue to use our dialect (Textile) but, on the other side, Textpattern is too connected to Textile to allow just the thinking to put it on the same level.

So, are there any chances to see TextUp inside the 4.7 release?

Last edited by candyman (2016-09-20 08:30:34)

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#31 2016-09-20 09:09:37

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 10,740
Website GitHub

Re: Textile vs Markdown

candyman wrote #301626:

So, are there any chances to see TextUp inside the 4.7 release?

Sure, if you write it :-p

We may be able to rustle up some coders who are willing to strip the cruft from Textile and modge the best bits of Markdown into it. I could make a start one day, but if anybody wants to run with it now, stick your hand up and I’ll make a repo. There’s already a top-level GitHub project of the same name (which is a shame), but we could swing one off textpattern/textup no problem.


The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.

Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp

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#32 2016-09-20 11:53:05

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,721
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

candyman wrote #301626:

I understand that if the world is speaking a language (Markdown) we can’t continue to use our dialect (Textile) but, on the other side, Textpattern is too connected to Textile to allow just the thinking to put it on the same level.

Not everybody speaks Markdown, there are other markup languages that are in use worldwide. This, what GitHub is doing, is directed straight at Textpattern, a fuck you if you will. Wouldn’t be surprised if over cocktails someone from Automattic didn’t nudge the decision a bit. Think about it, people decide on Textile for their GitHub pages, they really like it, and decide to give Textpattern a try. Not no more folks.

This is bullshit, and your project was just dealt a lethal blow, and you’re debating the install routine.

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#33 2016-09-20 12:12:30

gaekwad
Server grease monkey
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 3,888
GitHub

Re: Textile vs Markdown

hcgtv wrote #301637:

This, what GitHub is doing, is directed straight at Textpattern, a fuck you if you will. Wouldn’t be surprised if over cocktails someone from Automattic didn’t nudge the decision a bit.

You’re massively overstating the importance/relevance of Textpattern to anyone at Automattic. WordPress is thought to run about 25% of websites, and it’s steadily increasing its marketshare. The same organisation shows Textpattern usage currently at 0.003% of websites and in decline — in real terms, for every Textpattern instance, there’re about 8,000 WordPress instances.

I’m not connected or affiliated with GitHub beyond being a contributor to open source projects hosted there, but practicality speaking they have finite resources and they clearly need to prioritise. I don’t have statistics or data from SEC filings, but how many GitHub repositories are paid for? 1%? 10%? 25%? More than half? I don’t know.

This is bullshit, and your project was just dealt a lethal blow, and you’re debating the install routine.

Respectfully, Bert, this is not a lethal blow, not even close. If you’re trolling and I just fell for it, then +1 internet point to you.

GitHub Pages, something that this shoestring, volunteer-led project uses at no cost made a decision to deprecate and stop using Textile at a given point. There was notice given, and it was a commercial decision. Markdown took off, is more well-known and likely used more widely than Textile. People clearly didn’t decide on Textile for their GitHub Pages in sufficient numbers for GitHub to continue supporting it.

Textpattern still works in the same fashion as before. The docs need some rewriting, and by nature of them living in a VCS like git on GitHub, >1 person can get involved in this process.

Don’t want to add Markdown to your skill set? Then don’t learn it. Easy, really.

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#34 2016-09-20 12:30:17

philwareham
Core designer
From: Haslemere, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,553
Website GitHub Twitter

Re: Textile vs Markdown

Yes, exactly what Pete said.

We are not connected to Textile at all in my eyes – apart they were just both initially created by the same person who then walked away from both early in their life. Textile has it’s own developers and organisation, who chose to develop it as they see fit.

All we want to do it gives the option of using Markdown in the core as well as Textile to end users, since it is a massively more popular text filter. If you then still want to use Textile you still can.

GitHub streamlined its Jekyll-powered GitHub Pages of a number of features to make their development cycle easier – it’s not an attack on anyone.

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#35 2016-09-20 12:58:50

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,721
Website

Re: Textile vs Markdown

Guys and Gals,

Textpattern has been a surreal experience, thanks for the code.

bert@jessie:~$ exit

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#36 2016-09-20 15:21:28

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,378
Website GitHub Mastodon

Re: Textile vs Markdown

Wordpress:

The definitive Textile Plugin is Textile2 which hasn’t been updated in 9 years and is based on Brad Choate’s Textile2 fork. There are later versions of plugins but speaking from experience none of them seem to work that well.

The definitive Markdown Plugin is JP Markdown which is a repackaged versions of the Markdown that users of WordPress’ JetPack services get and updated last a few months ago. There are also a couple of versions that use Parsedown.

Drupal:

Textile – Release Date: 2011-Oct-22

Markdown – Release Date: 2016-Aug-15

Maybe there is some alternative universe where Textile maintained the early momentum but we don’t live there. I don’t think most people even Markdown but just stay with HTML but I personally like the idea of everyone having a choice.

Edit: Update the blog post link from goo.gl to bit.ly.

Last edited by michaelkpate (2016-09-20 18:22:59)

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