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#11 2016-09-07 15:34:46

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,244
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

hcgtv wrote #301179:

Oh, and the Wayback Machine link has a %3A instead of a “:” in the url.

Updated to a bit.ly link :)

He also mentions charging for business related sites.

Weebly is a nice example of what could be done with a Textpattern hosted service.

Their docs are simple, and to the point.

Paying $99 a month for Zendesk Enterprise seems a bit excessive.

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#12 2016-09-07 15:41:59

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,634
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

philwareham wrote #301180:

If you don’t use Sass then unfortunately you’re not going to be much help to me anyway.

I’ve just gotten an understanding of CSS, so Sass is like way overkill for me.

michaelkpate wrote #301182:

Paying $99 a month for Zendesk Enterprise seems a bit excessive.

I was pointing out how simple the docs were, one page, linking to examples, instructions, etc. Not too overwhelming, everything easily accessible, no having to click here and there to dig a find.

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#13 2016-09-08 09:11:30

sacripant
Plugin Author
From: Rhône — France
Registered: 2008-06-01
Posts: 478
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

Me too, I’m sad by the adoption of Jekyll for documentation :(
It’s a terrible disavowal for Textpattern.

This choice simply mean that Textpattern is not a suitable tool for content managed collaboratively by a community.
Although I’m ok with that.

But once Github was chosen to manage collaboratively the documentation, 2 choices opened to the core tram :

  • Evolve Textpattern to enable it to handle the import of articles files from github and flat files
  • Use another tool like Jekyll and rewrite all content in markdown markup.

For me, you make the wrong. Textpattern could be better and offer a new capacity.

But this is not the most important. The most important is that textpattern have a documentation :)

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#14 2016-09-08 09:35:55

philwareham
Core designer
From: Farnham, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,256
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

We are using Jekyll since it is the right tool for this – that simply means we are dumping MediaWiki for Jekyll for collaborative documentation. Textpattern hasn’t _lost_here since it wasn’t ever running the docs in the first place.

GitHub builds a new flat file Jekyll site every time you commit changes to a page/document, so what you are saying is I should wait around for some speculative feature that does this via Textpattern instead, somehow injecting new changes into a database when someone commits changes on GitHub, making a more complex system that can easily fall-over (and probably can’t be done in the first place)? No thanks.

The original textpattern.net docs are/were in Wiki markup so the content has to be rewritten anyway, so we would have had to (and did for some of the docs) rewrite in Textile anyway since they were not in that format. It just happens that we now have to use Markdown instead, since GitHub wanted to streamline their support and Textile just wasn’t used by the vast majority of their user base.

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#15 2016-09-08 12:17:15

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,341
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

sacripant wrote #301224:

This choice simply mean that Textpattern is not a suitable tool for content managed collaboratively by a community.

Not even close to being a concern, or relevant.

We’re not talking about just any “content”; we’re talking about documentation, which is a significant distinction, because documentation, ideally speaking, calls for some robust collaboration features:

  1. accommodates contributors in a controlled way (no stepping on toes)
  2. can track editorial changes
  3. can provide versioning/rollback
  4. employs use of system notifications (a critical collaboration function)
  5. provides issues tracking (think wiki “Talk” pages)
  6. etc

Textpattern doesn’t provide any of that. Never has. It can’t even send a notification to a Copy Editor when a Freelancer changes an article’s status from Draft to Pending, which is a pretty simple workflow, and pretty basic function in most other collaborative publishing systems. GitHub, on the other hand, handles all that extremely well, in it’s own particular way — it’s a collaborative demon by nature.

Textpattern is great for a lot of projects and content types; especially where content has a clear division of labor. But when it comes to flat-file documentation that begs for controlled collaboration, it’s not the best choice, not by a long way. I could probably find a 100 employed tech writers in my network to tell you the same thing, but then you’d have to listen to boring accounts of DITA authoring and exotic applications with much steeper learning curves than Jekyll. ;)

Jekyll may not be the best choice either, but any flat-file solution on GitHub is a far better option than Txp alone.

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#16 2016-09-08 12:56:30

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,634
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

Destry wrote #301227:

Textpattern is great for a lot of projects and content types; especially where content has a clear division of labor.

That’s what Textpattern’s documentation workflow has been over the years, 2 or 3 volunteers who took it upon themselves to write and maintain the docs. There was a division of labor, collaboration by the many never quite materialized.

You talk about Doctor CMS, which brought me to the Minio docs.

Would you like to see the Textpattern docs looking just like Minio’s by the end of next week?

  • Installation
  • Quickstart
  • User Guide
    • Content
      • Textile
    • Presentation
      • Tags
      • Themes
    • Admin
      • Plugins
  • About

I can guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that Textpattern 4.6 will render a doc page before Doctor CMS even has a chance to start it’s progress wheel.

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#17 2016-09-08 13:00:58

philwareham
Core designer
From: Farnham, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,256
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

I’d rather you help work on the project and platform I have chosen (and I’ve already explained why I’ve chosen) – that being here

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#18 2016-09-08 13:01:02

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,341
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

I might as well add… aside from the functional features I outlined above, a flat-file approach to documentation on GitHub also allows contributors to use the editor they want to use, rather than constrain them to a single one.

Sure, Phil has made the admin-side pretty. But I don’t want to carry a tool belt when all I need is a pencil. I work with words more than anything else most of the day, and there’s nothing I’ve found yet that beats iA Writer as a copy editing application, and I’ve tried and paid for many editors. (I also like Scrivner, but that’s a different world.)

I like Writer because it’s designed for writers, not developers. It’s designed around the writing process, and the features that writers are sensitive to; editing comfort, mainly. The only way it could be better is if it supported Textile too, and in that respect I hear Ulysses is pretty good (supports both). I also love that it’s a native OS application, and I can manage files in a regular file manager, both locally and in the ether. No web server or database overhead to worry about. That works quite nice with GitHub repos, and when I’m offline.

But, this isn’t a pitch to sell you on iA Writer. You likely have your editor preference too, and that’s the whole point — be able to use what you like! It just happens to be another good reason for flat-file collaboration.

If Txp articles could be flat-files, and I could push from Writer to Txp, that’s how I would work whenever I didn’t need to fiddle with custom fields, output configurations, metadata, time stamps, or whatever. Headless, baby, headless.

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#19 2016-09-08 13:09:23

hcgtv
Plugin Author
From: Miami, Florida
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,634
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

philwareham wrote #301229:

I’d rather you help work on the project and platform I have chosen (and I’ve already explained why I’ve chosen) – that being here

Sorry, I don’t do Markdown.

Destry wrote #301230:

Headless, baby, headless.

We’re getting there, give me time.

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#20 2016-09-08 13:30:45

sacripant
Plugin Author
From: Rhône — France
Registered: 2008-06-01
Posts: 478
Website

Re: The evolution of Textpattern

Again, I think I misspelled my thoughts.

I understand why you have chosen to github + Jekyll: Github for the benefits just described by Destry and Jekyll because he is integrated with Github : automatic compilation for each commit in maser branch.
Cool, perfect, it corresponds to your need and it’s efficient.

Truly, I would have been really happy if Textpattern proposed an articles import system since flat files (it’s already exist for pages / forms / css, why not for articles ? ).
And needs of a new documentation site could have been a good pretext and challenge to develop it.

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