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#37 2015-08-10 07:27:47

philwareham
Core designer
From: Haslemere, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,555
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

I would also be interested in the Foundation idea. My accountant didn’t have any experience of setting one of those up in the UK so she was a dead end, unfortunately.

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#38 2015-08-10 16:15:37

maverick
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From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

jstubbs wrote #294030:

Nice idea, but will require a plan. For example, in which jurisdiction and what is the purpose and ownership of the foundation etc etc.

Absolutely in agreement that the community would need to agree to a plan before moving foreward.

colak wrote #294031:

We could open a specialised thread to collectively discuss this and see if we can reach a consensus.

I support opening this discussion. I would suggest that opening such a discussion would be most effective if 1) the Development Team is in consensus and 2) subsequently a member of the Dev Team opened the discussion.

There are a several of threads and posts on this subject floating around. Several posts were made within the last couple of months.

philwareham wrote #294040:

I would also be interested in the Foundation idea. My accountant didn’t have any experience of setting one of those up in the UK so she was a dead end, unfortunately.

I think identifying the home base jurisdiction may be the first move once the discussion is green-lighted by the Dev Team.

I have a bit of experience with not-for-profits in the US, having worked for them over the years, but am by no means an expert. I know accountants and lawyers who are. I am willing to offer what help I can if desired. That said, my impression is that the UK is closer to the center of activity, and would see that as an argument for the UK. Or Germany for that matter.

I’m not sure what countries offer the most beneficial conditions, though.

Last edited by maverick (2015-08-10 16:17:13)

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#39 2015-08-10 16:50:47

zero
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2004-04-19
Posts: 1,462
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

I think clarification and agreement on what kind of non-profit org is wanted needs sorting out. The words used vary from place to place, so Americans may be thinking of one thing whilst Europeans another when a word like Foundation is used.

In the UK, Foundation has no precise meaning in English law and is rarely used. Charitable Trust is the equivalent but this must demonstrate a charitable purpose and a public benefit to get tax breaks and recognized legal status. This would not be possible or would take an immense amount of work and time to set up. And basically it is not what we want. Please read What is a foundation? for more about the term Foundation and why it is inappropriate for our needs, in my opinion.

I’d guess that proponents of a Foundation are thinking more along the lines of the links in this post by maruchan about the Tiki community association. The term foundation is used as an alias for their setup (follow first link and scroll down to see that).

Or perhaps those who introduced the term Foundation are thinking of something else? If so, they need to outline a simple definition. Then whoever might help setting this legal entity up can base their actions on a community consensus of what is needed.


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#40 2015-08-10 16:58:12

philwareham
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From: Haslemere, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,555
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

In the UK it’s non-profit organisation/not-for-profit organisation I refer to when talking about a ‘Foundation’. Those are the proper term for what I’d imagine we would need if it were UK-based.

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#41 2015-08-10 17:37:06

zero
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From: Lancashire
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

philwareham wrote #294056:

In the UK it’s non-profit organisation/not-for-profit organisation I refer to when talking about a ‘Foundation’. Those are the proper term for what I’d imagine we would need if it were UK-based.

OK, you posted this link in another thread. Are these several types of non-profit orgs what others think of as a Foundation ?


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#42 2015-08-10 18:28:31

Bloke
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From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 10,795
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

Some kind of incorporated entity to which stuff (domains, etc) can be assigned, with multiple, transferable owners so we’re not reliant on one person propping up the whole circus, seems like a great use of the funds. Thank you to all the generous contributors.

I don’t know what this structure is called in legalese, but having little respect for the vampires of that profession anyway I’ll leave it to those people who like that kind of stuff. As long as we don’t get into the realm of having to submit tax returns every year to say we’ve made zero profit and all the ridiculous form-filling that comes with it (like people who hire contractors have to abide by), I’m happy.


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#43 2015-08-10 18:32:19

maverick
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From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

re: Foundation:

A charitable organization giving grants away to other groups. That is a frequent application of the word here in the US. That is not what I was trying to communication. Though there are specifically focused “foundations” designed to benefit a specific cause (in this case, Txp) that might be a possible variation depending on the outcome of the community’s discussion.

re: Not For Profit / Non-profit

There are a number of nuanced definitions here in the US, depending on purpose, nature of business conducted, etc. Foundations (above), would fall under this broader umbrella.

I would think one or more of the non-profit options would fit the type of activity we are discussing.

I meant: a legal entity that would represent Textpattern as a whole, with the right to conduct business (own domains, copyrights, purchase licenses, etc) and otherwise represent us. I would be comfortable if it a variation that allowed the option for subsidiary ownership/activity in for profit business activity. While it might never be used by our community, it would allow for flexibility should the opportunity arise down the road to provide income to the project.

I was imagining charitable in the sense that a use not-for-profit can usually receive donations to support the ongoing projects of the organization.

I’ve started reading through the various links provided. The Tiki Community Assoc. sounds like it has similar goals.

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#44 2015-08-10 18:54:10

maverick
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From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

Following up on Manchuren’s links about Tiki::

Tiki Software Community Association profile at openhub

That sounds good.

Not sure what annual paper work will be required for that, but I would imagine most variations have some sort of annual reporting/filing fee. And probably all but a couple of the most simple of options will have some sort of filing with the Revenue agency of the country in which the corporation takes place. (Sorry Bloke!)

Last edited by maverick (2015-08-10 18:57:01)

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#45 2015-08-10 20:00:46

zero
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2004-04-19
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

I tried unsuccessfully to see how Tiki was set up, including how to set up a community association in Canada where Tiki is based. There are plenty of general guidelines but it’s hard to find the right specific one.

Here’s a Route Map for a not-for-profit org to find the best legal structure Different people may come up with different results depending on how they see how this thing should be. Give it a try folks. I got ‘Social Enterprise’. What will you get?


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#46 2015-08-10 20:50:42

maverick
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From: Southeastern Michigan, USA
Registered: 2005-01-14
Posts: 975
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

zero wrote #294065:

I got ‘Social Enterprise’. What will you get?

I ended up at Social Enterprise as well. Based on a cursory reading, a LC or CIC sounds the most compatible with the aims/goals we’ve discussed.

Obviously there is a need for legal/accounting counsel as well.

re: Tiki – I found one place where they are said to be headquartered in the US, but Wikipedia indicates Canada is their location for incorporation. Not sure how the cross-border thing works. That said, it does look fairly easy to incorporate a similar organization in Canada

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#47 2015-08-10 21:16:43

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 10,795
Website GitHub

Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

maverick wrote #294063:

Not sure what annual paper work will be required for that… all but a couple of the most simple of options will have some sort of filing with the Revenue agency of the country in which the corporation takes place.

Figured as much, I was just being belligerent. Been bored with running a company before, jumping through far too many governmental hoops for very little gain. My mate runs his own business and occasionally hires subcontractors. He has to submit a form every month, even if he hasn’t hired any people in that month. Just puts zeros in all columns and sends it off. A colossal waste of effort, which pretty much sums up this country’s approach to small business ventures.

I’d suggest hosting it somewhere else where they actually encourage our proposed type of organisation. In Europe, probably. Certainly not the US or UK: the last fifty years or so have been all about big business or friends of the politicians. Nobody else need apply.

a variation that allowed the option for subsidiary ownership/activity in for profit business activity

Yes, that’d be brilliant if such an entity exists. Gives us control to chop and change members and for the community to buy into the organisation when things go well.


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#48 2015-08-11 13:43:14

zero
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2004-04-19
Posts: 1,462
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Re: Summer 2015 fund raiser for Textpattern

As this thread has turned to a discussion of legal entities, I’ve started a new thread here.


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