The direction of Textpattern 5

michaelkpate · 2012-01-11 21:56:39

thebombsite wrote:

So now I shall point directly at the elephant in the room that everyone else is trying to ignore. For too long now the direction of Textpattern has been driven by coders.

I would respectfully disagree.

Textpattern 4, darling friends and beloved comrades, is now available. – Dean Allen, August 14, 2005

I would argue that the elephant in the room is that there we are really still on 1.0 of a Content Management System that began development 12 years ago. While 4.4.1 is certainly better than 4.0 and infinitely more secure, it isn’t fundamentally different than the version I first downloaded back in 2004.

I think we all agree that we want the Textpattern user community to grow and I am pretty sure it is going to take something like a 5.0 release for that to happen. Nothing short of that is going to generate enough buzz to get people’s attention.

Personally, I don’t care if we use git or Mercurial or even the venerable Subversion. I am just looking forward to things moving ahead.

joebaich · 2012-01-11 22:23:26

Like @thebombsite, I am a user and no coder. When I read Stef’s blog post of 7 Jan my heart sank and I felt as though I was staring at the great naked arse of an Emperor (not Stef’s backside, Hans Christian Andersen’s Emperor with no clothes). I slumped into the depths of despond and had a sleepless night as I fretted about an apparent lack of ~~clothes~~ progress. Textpattern is important to me because I have invested time and effort learning how to use it and have a bunch of client sites running it.

The next day I hoisted aboard Marc Carson’s and Dale Chapman’s replies to Stef’s post and snapped out of the despond. They were exactly right, nobody is getting paid to develop Textpattern and those that do, do it because they enjoy it. I then re-read most of this topic and point back to the its third post where Jeff Soo in his very first post as a dev explains very concisely and in terms that are easy to understand: why PHP5, why a framework (MVC), why OOP and why Spark/Plug. I had to Google MVC to find out that it was a type of coding framework. As a web site designer I know exactly what a framework is, I collect a new HTML/CSS framework every other day to play with.

So to @thebombsite I say “Courage, mon brave”! The Textpattern core and plug-in developers are doing an outstanding job. So there hasn’t been much palpable progress in developing Textpattern 5 in the last twelve months. Fact of life, let’s get over it. Textpattern 4 whatever is alive and well to keep us going for the present. As for the notion that users should drive the development of Textpattern, well that’s a bit like saying the passengers should drive the bus. Our role as users in all this is to define a user requirement, or more simply, state what we need doing. It’s not our job to tell the developers how to do it, that’s for them to sort out.

I was sad to see Walker Hamilton go off in the huff, I hope that he will relent in due course because he has does good work and is exactly the kind of high profile designer the community needs to fly a Textpattern flag at the sharp end.

thebombsite · 2012-01-11 23:28:10

I have plenty of courage Joe. No worries there.

So assuming the debate about whether a framework is used or not is done and dusted there still appears to be the question of which one. Spark/Plug is currently being used but is new and doesn’t appear to have everything required for Textpattern 5. That said it would seem that as something becomes required it is created. Am I thinking right there?

Marc C. then suggests the devs might want to look at processwire as it is already an up and running project and the project owner is keen too. It seems a logical suggestion as the devs would only need to develop Textpattern on top of it and not have to develop the framework as they go. Am I thinking straight there?

One advantage for processwire is that I have already downloaded and installed it. Seems a rather large download though. Ten times bigger than the current Textpattern. I know this includes a site so I’m assuming that for a framework we don’t need all of that. Maybe just the “wire” part? I should mention that It did install very easily with no need to create and upload a config file.

MattD · 2012-01-11 23:36:04

It looks to me like Processwire is a ~~CMS that Marc was saying he could move sites to INSTEAD of Textpattern or Escher. Not to build Textpattern on top of~~.

edit: I may have misunderstood what he said

Last edited by MattD (2012-01-12 00:18:09)

artagesw · 2012-01-11 23:45:46

thebombsite wrote:

So assuming the debate about whether a framework is used or not is done and dusted there still appears to be the question of which one. Spark/Plug is currently being used but is new and doesn’t appear to have everything required for Textpattern 5.

Like what? I built Escher, a very functional CMS containing many of the features Textpattern users have been asking for – all on top of Spark/Plug. Statements like this need to be backed up with specifics, so they may be properly addressed. Otherwise, they serve only to further fuel the flames of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

No framework does everything a given application needs. Otherwise users would run the framework alone, with no need of an additional application layered on top. By definition, a framework is a set of building blocks. That said, let’s not foget that Spark/Plug is authored by me, a Textpattern dev. And it has been developed with the creation of CMS applications (Escher, Txp) in mind from the start.

When the time comes that Textpattern needs some functionality added to its underlying framework, what framework author do you think will be more responsive to that need? The one who is also a Textpattern developer? Or one who has no vested interest in Textpattern?

Last edited by artagesw (2012-01-11 23:51:28)

tye · 2012-01-12 00:54:02

I’m not a coder and also get lost with talk of spark/plug, git, mercurial, mvc and all that mallarky – but I do know that the txp devs have always delivered a great product for me, a designer/user, and kept to the line of a lightweight/user friendly/powerful, flexible, elegant and easy-to-use CMS :) – so can’t see why they would change now

I have faith

Last edited by tye (2012-01-12 01:00:02)

maruchan · 2012-01-12 03:58:58

artagesw wrote:
When the time comes that Textpattern needs some functionality added to its underlying framework, what framework author do you think will be more responsive to that need? The one who is also a Textpattern developer? Or one who has no vested interest in Textpattern?

I’m assuming you’re referring to ProcessWire and its author? As the main guy who brought that up, I think what I’m missing is information on what’s being done on the Spark/Plug front. Is official documentation coming soon? I am looking forward to further Escher developments as well so please keep us in the loop.

One of the things that makes ProcessWire really stand out is the outstanding documentation and frequent updates and support from the author. I guess it’s in his best interest if he wants his framework to be successful. But I’m not really loyal to a specific technology as much as I’m looking for ways to contribute to the acceleration of TXP5. If there are plans for Spark/Plug and even Escher to grow in those areas, I know that would be great to hear about.

Last edited by maruchan (2012-01-12 04:02:23)

artagesw · 2012-01-12 04:34:46

I’m assuming you’re referring to ProcessWire and its author?

Not at all. I’m speaking generally of insert your favorite php framework here.

Is official documentation coming soon?

Currently, the code is fairly well-documented. External user documentation will come eventually.

One of the things that makes ProcessWire really stand out is the outstanding documentation and frequent updates and support from the author.

If you check Spark/Plug’s update history on Google Code, I think you’ll find that the pace of development has been fairly brisk. Escher development has temporarily slowed due to other commitments (day job, plus 15 hours/week volunteer teaching at our local high school), but it will pick up again when time permits.

maruchan · 2012-01-12 04:54:52

plus 15 hours/week volunteer teaching at our local high school

Come on now. I think we should all sit down and ask those kids if they really, really need one of our TXP developers at this time. :-)

artagesw · 2012-01-12 04:57:22

maruchan wrote:

Come on now. I think we should all sit down and ask those kids if they really, really need one of our TXP developers at this time. :-)

Well, I’m teaching AP Computer Science. So maybe some of them will grow up to be Txp devs!

Dragondz · 2012-01-12 08:46:18

Hi all

I follow carefully the discussion about textpattern 5 because i am very intersted in the future of txp, when i read comments of some disgners (i am also one of them but also a coder) i would say one thing: I dont think that txp 5 will change the manner that they are doing their jonbs! i am pretty sure (correct me if i am false) that the tag construction of textpattern 5 will be the same as textpattern 4 then putting a textpattern 4 website to textpattern 5 will be fast with a minimum f work (except about plugins if there are not adapted), the coding job will be underlying and a lot of things will been hidden behind tags and others!

Shure there will be some differents things because we expect a lot of improvments from textpattern 4 to textpattern 5 but i think (and hope) that will be very benefic to the project.

No one like modifications but it s allways necessary at some point then like said by tye keep faith in the project and dev that there are doing an amazing job and will surely adress a lot of concern about moving the community from textpattern 4 to textpattern 5.

gomedia · 2012-01-12 09:39:05

michaelkpate wrote:

I would argue that the elephant in the room is that there we are really still on 1.0 of a Content Management System that began development 12 years ago.

I totally agree. I look forward to the ~~bunfight~~ discussion in that respect – article limit=“10” for instance?

WRT a framework – I’m very happy to let the devs make this call. If they build it, we will come … Ooer, obviously.

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#265 2012-01-11 21:56:39

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#266 2012-01-11 22:23:26

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#267 2012-01-11 23:28:10

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#269 2012-01-11 23:45:46

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#271 2012-01-12 03:58:58

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#275 2012-01-12 08:46:18

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#276 2012-01-12 09:39:05

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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