last visit

colak · 2011-10-21 17:04:29

I don’t know if it will be an invasion of privacy or even technically possible but it will certainly help in the plugin author support maintenance.

I’ve been marking plugins as ORPHAN and moving them to the appropriate forum but as the prerequisites for an orphan plug in is the absence of the author from the forum for one year, I have to

click on the thread,
click on the author’s name
check the “Last visit” line
take appropriate action

I was wondering if it was possible to also have that info under the “real name” on the forum threads.

It will

speed up maintenance
allow members to see if the author is around (or not)
save bandwidth (during maintenance which some times we will be able to do it on the fly).

els · 2011-10-21 20:51:49

Not a bad idea at all. I assume it’s technically possible, we only need to ask Stef to write an smd_query for FluxBB ;)
Don’t know if the privacy would be a problem, as the info is already available (or don’t regular members see this if they view someone’s profile?)

BTW your topic title really scared me for a moment… ;)

colak · 2011-10-22 05:24:08

Els wrote:

Not a bad idea at all. I assume it’s technically possible, we only need to ask Stef to write an smd_query for FluxBB ;)
Don’t know if the privacy would be a problem, as the info is already available (or don’t regular members see this if they view someone’s profile?)

I’m not sure re members, i’ll have to become one to check:) Guests have no access to the profiles but if this is implemented it will be viewable by all, unless there is a code which limits which group sees it.

BTW your topic title really scared me for a moment… ;)

I was thinking about titling it for attention for the thread but it was also relevant:)

Gocom · 2011-10-22 07:09:00

I would prefer if my last visiting time wasn’t visible next to my post, thanks. I actually would want an anonymous option if possible. One that hides my name from the currently online list, hides last access time completely and so on.

colak wrote:

I’ve been marking plugins as ORPHAN and moving them to the appropriate forum but as the prerequisites for an orphan plug in is the absence of the author from the forum for one year

But how exactly does that alone tell if the plugin is orphaned? And how will the author even know if the plugin is marked orphaned without him knowing? You should ask the plugin author whether the plugin is still supported or not.

Especially if the plugin thread doesn’t get any new posts, it’s really possible that the author doesn’t visit the forum. Not everyone’s world centers around Textpattern and these forums. For example, theoretically I could completely stop visiting these forums, but still could be providing updates for my plugins. Me not visiting these forums means really nothing.

Honestly, I haven’t visited some of my plugin threads in years.

Last edited by Gocom (2011-10-22 07:19:05)

colak · 2011-10-22 07:59:04

Hi Jukka,

there is no way of knowing but orphan could also mean that is is orphan FOR this forum, ie the author will probably not answer to any posts for support here.

It is nevertheless a policy we opted to follow to help the users

the links to the sites are there and anyone could try and get direct author support.

Re privacy.

I understand what you are saying. I’m wondering if it would be possible for just moderators and admins could to that info next to the posts (under the names)

Bloke · 2011-10-22 14:18:13

colak wrote:

orphan could also mean that is is orphan FOR this forum, ie the author will probably not answer to any posts for support here.

While that’s true, I’m with Gocom on this: the fact the author hasn’t visited a thread for a while is not an indication of the level of support (or lack thereof). One thread I noticed very recently hadn’t had a hit for about 2 or 3 years. Someone posted a question and it was answered by the author the same day. That’s not what I’d call an orphan!

Also, a lot of authors are switching over to Github and Mercurial for the built-in issue trackers. That means the forum is bypassed alomst completely, even though the author may make an announcement about the plugin in the Author Support thread. Manfre’s plugins are a case in point: I don’t think he’s commented on the forum for ages, but his plugins are very actively maintained on bitbucket.

Incidentally, under the .org redesign the forum thread link is changing: the link could be to the author’s own site, a third party issue tracker, the forum, a Disqus link, a Facebook page, etc; in short, whatever tool the author finds works best for them. So this kind of exercise for determining orphan-ness will be fruitless. There are other tools being employed on .org to help keep that info up-to-date so it becomes the plugin core focus, with the forum just an optional extra.

colak · 2011-10-22 16:46:07

Stef, Jukka

Although both your arguments are valid I feel that there should be a policy regarding the threads. I think that to date we only made one mistake regarding orphaning a plugin which was actually still maintained. We are all aware regarding Manfre’s move but also Steve’s wish to give up some of his plugins.

The initial idea of marking plugins as orphan was to encourage other programmers to adopt them. I think that we mostly failed on that, but where we have succeeded was the careful questions users ask in those threads and the avoidance of frustration when there are no answers.

Although I strongly think that everybody should be free to move their plugin development and support systems in other sites, I also feel that those moves undermine the community and the centralised support that is provided here. I think that it would be a nightmare for most people if we had to visit as many sites as there are plugin authors to ask a question.

Beside the strength of the txp software, there is the power of the plugins but the cherry on the cake is this community which both attracted people in and kept them here using and commenting on txp.

Ruud’s update of the forum and the new thread search facility made things even easier for the user base. I cannot even imagine where txp would be without this forum.

To return to my argument regarding orphan plugins: To orphan a plugin we follow a process, the first one being the last visit of the author here. My request regarding “last visit” was to help us ever so slightly speed up this process.

Bloke · 2011-10-22 17:28:50

colak wrote:

Although I strongly think that everybody should be free to move their plugin development and support threads in other sites, I also feel that those moves undermine the community and the centralised support that is provided here.

Maybe, but the issue of support and the very reason people come here (usually as a last resort, I hasten to add) is because textpattern.org is not very user- and developer-friendly. The idea behind the revamp (and, aside from finding spare time, the reason it’s taking so long to realise) is because it requires a step-change in its focus. The plugin hub is currently here. The plugin hub should be textpattern.org, where:

you go when you have support issues with a plugin — it’s still one link away, whether you be directed to the forum here, or to an issue tracker
a community-written wiki page of up-to-the-minute content on that very plugin is maintained: like a consolidated silver bullet of info that answers every conceivable question or repeat request that normally gets lost among the noise of a long plugin thread. For example, there should be a section on “Upgrade notes” which might give key info about what to expect when upgrading from plugin vA.B to vX.Y (if that’s relevant), and a section on what to do to get an abandoned plugin running under a recent version of Txp. Stuff like that is invaluable, and easily lost in a big forum
you can find information about similar plugins, or core tags that can do the same thing, perhaps negating the need for the plugin at all
you can check at a glance who owns or maintains it and can see when the plugin was written, the date of its last update, its changelog and you can check for compatibility with a particular Textpattern version

When you put all that together, the wealth of information at your fingertips is greater than an ever-expanding forum and more accessible than a giant thread of stuff people have to wade through before asking a question. It doesn’t fragment the community, it empowers it to behave in new ways; to focus on what’s important and present relevant info in context.

I may be labouring the point but consider a bunch of users who use, say, smd_xml. At the moment, any cool usage of that plugin or problems, or “can it do this” questions are all lumped together in one thread. Someone posts, it’s added to the list. Now consider a wiki document about that plugin. You check that and if your question isn’t answered, you visit the support page — github issue tracker, forum thread, whatever. Other people who regularly use that plugin can subscribe to the issues exactly like they do here: a notification comes in, the people in the know can answer. If it’s not answerable, the question can be deflected to the forum. Either way, once the answer is found, the relevant info can be extracted and put in the wiki doc: that could be in the form of a killer example or a compatibility note, or a known issue. Thus instead of just being another post in a list, it closes the loop, making the knowledge base even more useful.

Of course, anyone can come here and ask a general question about combining plugins or anything about a specific plugin and the community will be here to answer. But specific information about a plugin and its universe should be centred around the plugin, not around a forum imo: the focus is currently wrong and I’m trying to put it right.

Doing that also means that trawling the threads to find out if a plugin is “orphaned” or not becomes a moot point: anyone can visit the plugin’s page on textpattern.org and make a judgement based on the info in that one page. That has the benefit of saving you and the other moderators time, which can be better spent consolidating key facts and concerns into the plugin’s wiki doc to cut down on the number of questions required, which ultimately means people can get things done faster, there are fewer interruptions to plugin devs and, when questions do surface, they can either be deflected or rolled into the plugin’s wiki doc / .org page, transferred to TxpTips or they can be addressed here.

the cherry on the cake is this community which both attracted people in and kept them here using and commenting on txp.

Yes, but look at a lot of the questions on popular plugins. Now count how many people start the post with somethnig along the lines of “I’m not sure if the info has been covered in this thread: it’s too big”. In-thread search is brilliant, yes, but no-need-to-search is better :-)

Also, doing this doesn’t signal death of the forum. Some — myself included at the moment until I can get round to moving away to github or something — may prefer to keep discussions here. But empowering plugin authors to support their plugins in a way that suits their schedule should attract developers over time; developers who may be put off by a ‘forced forum’ support environment as it is a time-intensive management tool.

Last edited by Bloke (2011-10-22 17:32:14)

colak · 2011-10-23 07:16:04

Bloke wrote:

I may be labouring the point but consider a bunch of users who use, say, smd_xml. At the moment, any cool usage of that plugin or problems, or “can it do this” questions are all lumped together in one thread. Someone posts, it’s added to the list. Now consider a wiki document about that plugin. You check that and if your question isn’t answered, you visit the support page — github issue tracker, forum thread, whatever. Other people who regularly use that plugin can subscribe to the issues exactly like they do here: a notification comes in, the people in the know can answer. If it’s not answerable, the question can be deflected to the forum. Either way, once the answer is found, the relevant info can be extracted and put in the wiki doc: that could be in the form of a killer example or a compatibility note, or a known issue. Thus instead of just being another post in a list, it closes the loop, making the knowledge base even more useful.

It is exactly my point but coming from the other side:) Wouldn’t this just decentralise everything?

I go to the .org side
find a plugin and read on it
I have extra questions which is the case for most people
I come here to ask
the author or a community member answers
if the question is vital the answer is added to the ‘wiki’.

Writing about it, does not make it sound bad at all. A centralised detailed plugin “how to”. But will it be that detailed? Or will it be like the .net site where the examples provided demonstrate the basic use of the tags which are OK but not enough for the plethora of site variations made possible by the flexibility of txp?

In this forum we find scattered many basic questions (some by me:)) – but it is also populated by many posts which provide some very involved examples – some of which are now in txptips. It is here where questions and ideas are incubated.

I realise that the development of the .org site is not about the demotion of the forum but the centralisation of knowledge. I accept and support that but let us not do it in the expense of the community.

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#1 2011-10-21 17:04:29

last visit

#2 2011-10-21 20:51:49

Re: last visit

#3 2011-10-22 05:24:08

Re: last visit

#4 2011-10-22 07:09:00

Re: last visit

#5 2011-10-22 07:59:04

Re: last visit

#6 2011-10-22 14:18:13

Re: last visit

#7 2011-10-22 16:46:07

Re: last visit

#8 2011-10-22 17:28:50

Re: last visit

#9 2011-10-23 07:16:04

Re: last visit

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