The direction of Textpattern 5

raveoli · 2011-02-01 17:09:31

I agree with the comments here that usability and end-users/clients should also be a focus.

And while I think it’s a good idea to start the codebase anew, all fresh and funky, I urge you to look at MODx CMS as an example.

The MODx Revolution version 2.0 (or whatever they called the rewritten version) is a geeks wet dream. All OOP, all MVC, but they totally lost sight of the end-users… the terminology in MODx 2.0 is so crazy. They have so many overlapping terms. It’s totally dark speech to me.

What I’m saying is, while it’s good to start all over on a codebase/project, it can easily end up being a programmers wet dream come true, yet present little practical benefit. WordPress is maybe too focused on end-user usability, and less on a lean codebase, but I make a living working with clients daily, helping them use WordPress better, develop their sites, etc. And it’s such a pleasing thing to hear them say “ahhh, so it’s really THAT easy to update my menu, wauw, thanks Oliver, I’m happy!” and that is, in the end, what makes or breaks the success of a platform.

Textpattern was originally made by a graphic designer (Dean Allen) who is not a programmer. That’s what made Textpattern the piece of software I loved to use for developing sites. It was lean, and used terminology that I as a graphic design (and usablity) oriented person LOVED. Then Dean lost interest in the project, and some geeks took over. Some of them were terrible communicators. They made me run away screaming, and deem Textpattern dying a slow death. Now there are new developers aboard, and they seem well intentioned, but not very focused on what made Textpattern what it was from the beginning, because they’re more focused on code. In other words, the dev team needs not just coders but also a visionary leader, and people focused on usability. Believe it or not, usability is hard work to get right.

Otherwise, years will pass, and then the big day will come where Textpattern 5 is released. And some people wil be like: “What’s new?” and the devs will be like: “It’s now OOP/MVC, isn’t it awesome?” and the response will be “ehm… yeah? but so what? it still doesn’t allow me to do XYZ…”

maruchan · 2011-02-01 17:36:08

The MODx Revolution version 2.0 (or whatever they called the rewritten version) is a geeks wet dream. All OOP, all MVC, but they totally lost sight of the end-users… the terminology in MODx 2.0 is so crazy.

Agreed. There’s an example of flexibility being given the run of the place. ModX became more of a programmerly software package and lots of people (myself included) are resisting the upgrade and asking for solid reasons why we need to drag ourselves through it.

MVC is great, but the promise of MVC always seems one or two steps removed from typical CMS users: “With MVC we’ll really have a great platform to build upon” is really still one step away from being an actual feature. :-)

Pat64 · 2011-02-02 10:35:04

Neko wrote:

That said, one thing WP shines at is that it is very easy on the client. I mean, writing posts is very nice. You get a WYSIWYG interface. You get to upload images and media directly from the write tab. You can bloody insert images and media into posts directly from the write tab. These little details actually make up for everything else (themes, you be damned!!!!1).
I mean, I love Textile and I’d use it for almost anything, it’s just that TXP should be more like WP when it comes to posting stuff. Easy on the client, more AJAX-y, more integrated and less nerdish.
Right now it’s a bit way too hardcore for the regular users. Should TXP try to replicate some of WP’s features, nothing would stop our beloved software from world domination. There, I said it. ‘Cause what is the point of being the best if you’re not also the number one? :O

Absolutly. That’s my point of view too.

masa · 2011-02-05 01:09:42

Very pleased to see Jeff on the Dev team!

I don’t really understand much of the technical aspects you were discussing previously, since I simply create Textpattern sites with whatever tags and plugins are available in the current version.

From reading this forum for years now I get the impression, that every new version tends to shake up plugin-land quite a bit (MLP, glz_custom_fields etc.). So perhaps it might be a good time to consider incorporating a few plugins/tags into the core as the Devs did with the image tags allowing us to build galleries right out of the box.

I take it, that unlimited categories are on the wish list for v5. But I also think, that integrating something similar to glz_custom_fields, multiple language support and a simple image editor (ebl_image_edit) could make Textpattern more powerful and attractive.

This is just my personal opinion as an end user. I’m well aware of the general desire to keep Textpattern lean.

masa · 2011-02-05 01:12:51

Pat64 wrote:

Absolutly. That’s my point of view too.

…and I agree with Neko and Patrick, too.

nico · 2011-02-07 08:35:01

I would like to see a solid support for multi language sites in TXP 5. The existing solution for TXP 4 is not very convenient.

mrdale · 2011-02-07 16:03:48

masa wrote:

I take it, that unlimited categories are on the wish list for v5. But I also think, that integrating something similar to glz_custom_fields, multiple language support and a simple image editor (ebl_image_edit) could make Textpattern more powerful and attractive.

Couldn’t agree more. Universal, ul cats + custom content types built from the ground up would thoroughly modernize this CMS. From a site builder’s perspective it would remove hundreds of lines of tag soup required to build sophisticated sites.

merz1 · 2011-02-07 16:54:50

New Strategy of future safe adoption: Not plug-in integration but core development team ‘adoption’?

What about adding core worthy plug-ins to a new core plug-in stable/barn?

Commitment, trust, safety are 1st class arguments which come to my mind. Supported feature enhancements and performance are (my) 2nd class arguments.

Example: rss_auto_excerpt or asy_jpcache are orphaned plug-ins where I would like to see such a commitment.

maverick · 2011-02-07 18:17:03

merz1 wrote:

a new core plug-in stable/barn

I like the idea of certain key plugins becoming “core sanctioned plugins”. This would fit well with the creation of a basic core sanctioned comment plugin.

merz1 wrote:

Example: rss_auto_excerpt

if it were only up to me :)

I know everyone has a plugin that they’d argue should be in the core. rss_auto_excerpt just happens to be one I’d like to see there.

I’d actually prefer the excerpt field be devolved to just another custom field (seems to me that it is simply a pre-defined custom field anyway, with a special tie-in to certain tags.) and rss_auto_excerpt become the standard way of handling excerpts.

It’s all I use anymore for excerpts, and from a semantics standpoint is more true to the world “excerpt” than an so-called excerpt field that can have completely unrelated content if one so choses. Plus it seems like a more simple and elegant way of handling excerpts.

Last edited by maverick (2011-02-07 18:18:51)

mrdale · 2011-02-07 21:51:21

maverick wrote:

I know everyone has a plugin that they’d argue should be in the core.

cough… upm_save_new cough…

merz1 · 2011-02-08 15:32:38

Guys, before everybody starts to throw in his:her favorite plug-in lists…

Strategy of future safe adoption: Not plug-in integration but core development team ‘adoption’?

Strategy is the point. The dev team should have a defined process how to select, manage and maintain those ‘adopted’ plug-ins.

IMHO such a repository would (also) be an easy & powerful marketing argument to catch new TXP users (before forcing them to loop through the good old install, try, error, problem, forum, solution queue).

joebaich · 2011-02-08 15:45:43

merz1 wrote:

Strategy of future safe adoption: Not plug-in integration but core development team ‘adoption’?

Strategy is the point. The dev team should have a defined process how to select, manage and maintain those ‘adopted’ plug-ins.

IMHO such a repository would (also) be an easy & powerful marketing argument to catch new TXP users (before forcing them to loop through the good old install, try, error, problem, forum, solution queue).

B U L L S E Y E !

Last edited by joebaich (2011-02-08 15:46:10)

hcgtv · 2011-02-12 15:59:09

Sorry for the delay in responding, vacationing in Florida with Mickey.

mrdale wrote:

Couple things, Bert (I appreciate your view and respectfully disagree)
I am interested in the devs (you and I) who want to be able to build powerful sites.

I’m not a Web Developer, I’m a content creator, and as such Textpattern 4.3.0 fits my needs just fine.

I am interested in the 9 to 5 users (site editors) who just want their sites to look good and be able to edit the content with a minimum of fuss

There are a lot of user friendly blogging tools these days.

I do “get” textile, and find it to be a functional impediment to site editors actually editing content.

Textile is built-in to Textpattern, hiding it from users is like hiding template tags from web developers.

We can debate forever Dale, but we’re looking at Textpattern from two different perspectives, so we’ll never come to any agreement. While you use Textpattern to make sites for clients, I use Textpattern for my own needs and my needs are not wanting.

tye · 2011-02-18 00:54:57

Just another though, how about some more love to sections and categories…. such as:

1 – Ordering function in back end
2 – Meta tags on creation
3 – Comments on or off per section

It was just a passing thought, I’m sure there is more to add.

As for the textile/WYSIWYG argument, I’m on the same side as mrdale – I build sites for clients – this is what they want… but can see hcgtv’s point of view because I don’t use a WYSIWYG editor on my own content sites, I try to use textile.

So how about having a toggle switch on the write tab – like hak_tinymce, or the option on have a WYSIWYG on install?

Algaris · 2011-02-18 11:59:03

How about a WYSIWYG editor that outputs textile? That way if you turn it off you’re just left with the textile markup.

Last edited by Algaris (2011-02-18 12:01:27)

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#76 2011-02-01 17:09:31

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#77 2011-02-01 17:36:08

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#78 2011-02-02 10:35:04

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#79 2011-02-05 01:09:42

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#80 2011-02-05 01:12:51

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#81 2011-02-07 08:35:01

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#82 2011-02-07 16:03:48

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#83 2011-02-07 16:54:50

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#84 2011-02-07 18:17:03

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#85 2011-02-07 21:51:21

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#86 2011-02-08 15:32:38

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#87 2011-02-08 15:45:43

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#88 2011-02-12 15:59:09

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#89 2011-02-18 00:54:57

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#90 2011-02-18 11:59:03

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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