[mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

nemoorange · 2008-11-03 15:09:00

Oliver,

First off, thank you for posting your comparison. I welcome critiques like yours as they are catalysts for the community. I have to agree with you on most your points about the design of Textpattern, both the homepage and the back-end admin. The Textpattern community and the Textpattern product both need a refresh badly.

Regarding textpattern.com — The redesign process has been slow and laboring. (Up until Wet’s recent mention in this thread of its status, I had assumed that it had been abandoned, so I’m pumped to see it back on track). Going back and forth between forum posts was difficult. I kinda wish that we had some leadership position where one person just made the executive decision, implemented the new design, without a lot of community involvement. Such a revision would have been swift and easy. If this route were taken, We would have had a new homepage in place for months. But community integration is what Textpattern is all about. It has allowed me, a fledgling student designer, to become involved in a product that is used around the world. Something should be said for that. Maybe Textpattern isn’t as sexy as Wordpress in the blogging world at large, but how integrated is the Wordpress community in its development?

As for the back-end — Like Wet mentioned, 4.0.7 will have some new back-end features geared towards “mingling.” I’m excited to see what’s to come. Until the next release comes, I already have a plugin to-be-released-shortly that enables users to easily switch the administration stylesheet. I’ve been working on several different styles, with the goal of finding a definitive solution to the current tab-clutter design currently in place.

I agree with you 100% on marketing the new release. The tag parser and tags-in-tags are cool features, but typical users will only really notice new chrome. If 4.0.7 came with a new back-end, I’m sure a lot of more people would take notice. Two polls indicated that the Textpattern marketshare is fairly slim. I would love to grab more users on board, and perhaps the best way to do that would be a back-end refresh.

About Wordpress — I installed it for the first time last week. I can see it being a delight for non-techie users. But as a designer, it’s not for me. You already hit upon the pain-points – raw PHP. In terms of Wordpress’s latest design revision, they employed Happy Cog who are one of the top web design firms out there. I’m sure if Textpattern had the same resources, the resulting back-end would be just as compelling. But again, that would go against what Txp is about.

I’m curious, what “aha” moments did you experience with Wordpress?

mrdale · 2008-11-03 16:09:42

Thanks for your the post, raveoli.

Whenever we get a passionate critique of TXP it kinda means that indeed there is life.

I have felt similar frustrations, which seem to boil over whenever I don’t have enough to do. Usually Jan-March (viva la xPattern!) but then I get so busy building sites with TXP that I just have to put up with the shortcomings that devs, for whatever reason, are unwilling to address.

To be fair they’re usually BIG BIG things, like flexible content types.

But I have noticed a renewed vigor lately with Devs and txp. The new tag parser is super nice. Also… guys like netcarver, bloke, jmd, etc.. and the one’s I can twist the arms of on private projects (hakjoon, igner) keep developing on TXP a fun and productive venture.

So fear not for TXP, and I hear you. Keep on truckin…

Last edited by mrdale (2008-11-03 16:11:38)

gerhard01 · 2009-05-18 20:21:35

Somehow innocent txp got into this rant about How to screw an open source project …

jstubbs · 2009-05-19 08:28:14

I don’t agree with Bert in that thread. Later he mentions Sam from welovetxp – he forgot TXP Tips which I run as a community project and I care a lot about it and TXP itself.

Even if Wet is the only dev currently working, his code contributions have been incredible over the last two releases and in the upcoming 4.09. We should congratulate him for this work.

saccade · 2009-05-19 15:31:04

jstubbs is right: Congratulations to Wet for all his fine work! And many thanks for all the care and devotion he puts into clean and useful code!

I don’t care the mere number of developers (while I think he shouldn’t be forced to carry the burdon alone forever – but all in good time) – but I care the quality of the results. And there it is just fine.
I think nobody can know if we would be on a better side with a different development model. I also don’t see an example where it is better with a different model.

Maybe it sounds old fashioned what I think, but IMHO the old model of craftsmen, of masters and journeymen/fellows, of developing skills out of experience – all this produced the most simple and usable tools (as well as techniques or artifacts) in all history.

Even if it is sometimes hard to wait or to patiently bear times of slow progress, or having to adapt to someone other’s handwriting, I think this solution is more able to take a weight in the end.

(btw I’m not romantic about “in the old times” but I had a close look on Richard Sennetts The Craftsman – a highly recommendable book – and on different forms of teamworking in communities and a university of applied sciences. I can’t complain about txp’s model if compared to any other model I know.)

Last edited by saccade (2009-05-19 15:48:22)

colak · 2009-05-19 17:23:29

gerhard01 wrote:

Somehow innocent txp got into this rant about How to screw an open source project …

Bert is very much involved with xpattern now which indeed looks very promising. Unfortunately – judging from his various posts – he seems to believe that textpattern should follow certain paths or face extinction.

I believe that forking open source projects is great but we don’t have to have a competition about which one will survive. More importantly we do not need to launch wars which is what Bert seems to be doing lately (possibly) to promote xpt. If txp is dying why do we have posts like this here? A dying cms also has a dying community which is the last place I would post my news.

TXP is a lightweight cms. It doesn’t need a lot of developers what it needs is a lot of users and a lot of people to care about it which it thankfully has.

hcgtv · 2009-05-20 03:40:02

colak wrote:

More importantly we do not need to launch wars which is what Bert seems to be doing lately (possibly) to promote xpt.

Colak, you are correct, let me see where the download link to xPattern 1.0 is, wait, I just had it, shoot, I’ll have to get back to you on that ;)

Let me see if I can explain myself one last time for those that care to listen: There are two ways to make money from Textpattern, use it as a tool, make it the best tool.

At present, Textpattern is a great tool for web developers. Heck, it’s like if you FTPed up static HTML, it’s that light and runs just as freaking fast. The web developers in the audience know what a great tool they have, go Wet they exclaim, unlimited custom fields, whoopee!

My aim has always been to gain a wider audience by making Textpattern the best tool. This opens up more possibilities to those of us that don’t live in Dreamweaver, Textmate or whatever you may use to make your beautiful designs. We, the less gifted, can make monies from commissioned plugins, packaged templates, detailed how-tos, hand holding installations and the list goes on and on, look towards Joomla! as a guide.

After 3 years 5 months 20 days, thanks Wolfram, I don’t believe I can change the direction of Textpattern. This project is comfortable being a tool for web developers, so be it. But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

wet · 2009-05-20 05:11:26

hcgtv wrote:

But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

Bert, are you interested in working on our forum site as a coder, one way or the other?

els · 2009-05-20 19:33:28

Bert, I think it’s a pity you made your post on that other forum such a slashing criticism, you’re explaining yourself in a much less unfriendly way over here.

After 3 years 5 months 20 days, thanks Wolfram, I don’t believe I can change the direction of Textpattern. This project is comfortable being a tool for web developers, so be it. But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

I understand that different people have different opinions and dreams about how their favourite CMS should evolve. But I don’t understand it when people won’t accept that their dream is just one of many, and though it is possible that it will become reality, it’s just as likely that it won’t. And if it will, it will not likely happen overnight.
If I wouldn’t like – and couldn’t influence – the way Txp evolves, I’d be off and find something else. If I could code – like you – I’d even have more options. I’d be sad of course, but I don’t think I would feel the need to convince others to stay away from it.

My aim has always been to gain a wider audience by making Textpattern the best tool.

And now that you’re convinced that making it the best tool will not work out, your aim is to keep the audience as small as possible by making posts like yours in other places? It doesn’t matter very much if you do that over here, because most of us can form our own opinions, but posts like that will certainly discourage others who are less informed. And I don’t think you have a good reason to do that.

hcgtv · 2009-05-21 13:01:27

Els wrote:

I understand that different people have different opinions and dreams about how their favourite CMS should evolve. But I don’t understand it when people won’t accept that their dream is just one of many, and though it is possible that it will become reality, it’s just as likely that it won’t.

Els, that’s really all it is differing opinions, nothing else.

And if it will, it will not likely happen overnight.

Going back to the title of this thread, you do know that Textpattern predates Wordpress? Had Dean Allen concentrated solely on Textpattern, like Matt Mullenweg did with Wordpress, I believe we wouldn’t be having this conversation. So it’s not so much that I want things to happen overnight, it’s that it should of happened years ago.

reid · 2009-05-21 13:50:54

hcgtv wrote:

Had Dean Allen concentrated solely on Textpattern, like Matt Mullenweg did with Wordpress, I believe we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

That’s right. It would be a conversation about the way Dean has acted like a dictator and not let any/every one be a dev, or kept trackbacks from being added as a feature, or isn’t issuing updates enough, or doesn’t post in the forum as much as he once did, or hasn’t changed the admin look in ages, and BTW, when is the web site going to be redesigned, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, likely not a whole lot different than today.

hcgtv · 2009-05-21 14:35:39

reid wrote:

In other words, likely not a whole lot different than today.

What’s old is new.

I still follow this forum because I run Textpattern, like I follow the development of any software that I happen to rely on, my preferred browser Firefox comes to mind. The only reason I posted in this thread is because I kept seeing my name mentioned about a post I had done over at another forum.

I’m not the first to have an opinion about the state of affairs, and I’m not going to be the last. Carry on.

mrdale · 2009-05-21 15:11:52

Bert > I think some credit should be given where due and I think things have started moving more efficiently with TXP. Wet has really stepped up and started taking input seriously and making some really useful and powerful revs, eg… Admin side UI, tag parser, All kinds of hooks.

I’ve also seen more response to requests and ideas than ever before. This is appreciated by all.

But I still think Wet should let a few of the heavy-hitters in the plugin arena in as devs, (bloke, steve, jmd, others) which would move things along even quicker. Wet could be the chief dev and still have the last word on stuff, but offload some of the coding to talented and qualified help.

So Thanks Wet, your attitude is appreciated. Don’t think we haven’t noticed…

Last edited by mrdale (2009-05-21 15:25:09)

hcgtv · 2009-05-21 15:38:19

mrdale wrote:

But I still think Wet should let a few of the heavy-hitters in the plugin arena in as devs, (bloke, steve, jmd, others) which would move things along even quicker.

That is exactly what I said over at the FluxBB forum, yet I’m accused of clubbing baby seals or something.

Wet could be the chief dev and still have the last word on stuff, but offload some of the coding to talented and qualified help.

Ditto, said the same thing, Textpattern needs a leader to direct operations.

mrdale · 2009-05-21 15:58:16

Bert> Then at the very least Bert, you and I are on the same page. Let’s start a seal-fighting syndicate… LOL

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#16 2008-11-03 15:09:00

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#17 2008-11-03 16:09:42

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#18 2009-05-18 20:21:35

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#19 2009-05-19 08:28:14

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#20 2009-05-19 15:31:04

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#21 2009-05-19 17:23:29

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#22 2009-05-20 03:40:02

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#23 2009-05-20 05:11:26

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#24 2009-05-20 19:33:28

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#25 2009-05-21 13:01:27

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#26 2009-05-21 13:50:54

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#27 2009-05-21 14:35:39

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#28 2009-05-21 15:11:52

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#29 2009-05-21 15:38:19

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#30 2009-05-21 15:58:16

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

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