[wiki] A New Textbook

Gocom · 2008-08-05 18:09:03

zero wrote:

you will design Textbook your way whether we like it or not. Take it or leave it or you will walk away. Clearly not interested in what is best for Textpattern but solely concerned with laying your concepts on us or nothing at all. And do you like laying your views on us!

Who is us and we? Count me out atleast, I love the fact that Destry does something really really useful and doesn’t pop out from nowhere, like some of us do, an alone wolf. PS. Wii is wii not we, if you got somesort of Wii-addiction like some of us do ;)

You start the textbook architecture thread asking about Reorg and Reorg Temp on Textbook. “I’m not sure what the objective difference is. Which one should be focused on?” you say. If you had read them you would have known. Those were my first attempts to organize existing Textbook articles and with you being the IA expert and all

O’rly? I see multiple topic scrattered around. Quite hard to spot everything, when there is multiple “zero Textbook templates/raws”-topics. Dude, limit a little.

You say… I say… You say… I say…

When does community say something? Are you alone? Community is same as a one person? But anyway, you did say, word against word. But then, you say “we are left behind”. Er what? We, you, me them? Decide, please.

It’s OK for you to come back after 2 years, play the IA and design expert and suggest my main usefulness will be cleaning up the content of Textbook, most of which is your mess?

Destry didn’t make the template and community did make the content too, right? So, when did Destry do all that shit your talkin’ about?

Everyone should now see why I did it that way and who is the shifty and disrespectful one.

Nope.

I do not look forward to waiting at least another month to see any of it, however. You’ve gotta do what you gotta do but I hope you might let the community behind your closed-doors project of the public Textbook. We can compete and co-operate at the same time if you do that to produce something excellent…

Didn’t you start that Textbook thing same way? You talk and then secretly decide that changing platform is the best choise… geez.

Btw, nothing personal, I just want to stop your Destry blaming, dear Peter. If you want, you can start blaming me, but neither I care if you blame me for something or email me “fucking asshole”-msg. It just makes me laugh as always :D

Zero and Destry, you’re both putting time and effort into the Textbook, thank you both.

Last edited by Gocom (2008-08-05 18:10:08)

hcgtv · 2008-08-05 18:24:00

mrdale wrote:

Guys> I don’t think anyone is as interested in this drama as you guys.

I find it very entertaining, though the posts are getting short story size, they do provide some sort of levity.

hakjoon wrote:

Bert’s efforts were not a TxB replacement.

My efforts were geared towards xPat, yes. I first concentrated on the tag reference, which I feel is the place most users go to.

Gocom wrote:

Wii is wii not we, if you got somesort of Wii-addiction like some of us do ;)

Which explains what I’ve been up to lately and haven’t finished the tag reference :)

zero · 2008-08-05 18:53:30

You trying to wind me up, Jukka, or are you drunk? If you want to know the truth you would read carefully before writing. By the way, your English is getting worse or you are getting lazier when writing. It does you no good. OK, grandad’s lecture over.

Destry wants to create Textbook his way so that means his actions affect all of us, ie the whole community, or aren’t you going to use Textbook? I use ‘we’ and ‘I’ appropriately afaik and your comments don’t make it clear what you are referring to.

Destry has written much good stuff for which the community is eternally grateful, but even he will admit there’s a lot of crap mixed in with it. It’s me who has been sorting it out, so I know. However, I will reiterate what Dale said above and say thanks for what you have done, Destry, I do appreciate much of it. There would only be half the content without you.

You say I am Destry blaming, but I am only defending my actions which Destry has found uncohesive. There was no need for Destry to find fault, I gave him the chance to carry on his own merry way. I actually gave the community a choice of another Textbook or at least a prototype to work on. Otherwise, as you can see, the community would end up with Destry’s design and we really don’t have a clue if it will be any good or not. Destry’s actual work or product relating to the new textbook at this moment in time is zero, nil, nowt. He says he’s done this and that but none of us have seen it, so I am challenging him to quit talking and start doing. If his product ends up better than mine then the whole community has benefited. It seems he is taking up the challenge so I am pleased with that because I thought he might find an excuse to walk away before contributing anything but lots of words.

Meanwhile, my version is complete, apart for some txp:tags and some discussion to make it better (which might lead to it being completely different but que sera sera :-) People can use it and try it (apart from editing and registration) and decide what is good and bad about it, then improve it or go and help Destry improve his, if he lets them.

Patrick and Dale, it would be nice to work together with Destry but believe me, I have good reasons not to. I am the one who has been offended. Unfortunately you would have to read the whole of my comment and the links on there to verify what I say. The main thing about my comment as I see it, is for Destry to read it all, take it to heart and then do something about it. Then we can move forward, even if we won’t work together. And Patrick, moving dokuwiki over is a simple ftp and change some permissions. Which won’t take long although it would need to co-exist with the existing textbook for a while, so I don’t know if that causes problems. Then there’s syncing the registration with forum registration and I’ve no idea how long that would take.

Gocom · 2008-08-05 18:54:18

hcgtv wrote:

Which explains what I’ve been up to lately and haven’t finished the tag reference :)

Yeah, I also like Wii. I don’t own it but I like and love it. But closest of my heart is Sony’s PS-series :) But don’t worry, the tag reference is rly good :P

zero wrote:

You trying to wind me up, Jukka, or are you drunk? If you want to know the truth you would read carefully before writing. By the way, your English is getting worse or you are getting lazier when writing. It does you no good. OK, grandad’s lecture over.

You got some serious problems? This is 3rd time you say that “your a drunk asshole speaking a bad london” in public. So what? I have always been this way, see. With fillers, slang, skipping articles. And I don’t care a damn shit about your old white ass opinion :D And speak the truth, I don’t see anything too worse in the way I speak. Maybe u’re just too old fart, dude. Yes, I’m not English like you and neither I’m educated like you ;)

Last edited by Gocom (2008-08-05 19:10:08)

reid · 2008-08-05 19:55:19

zero wrote:

You trying to wind me up, Jukka, or are you drunk? If you want to know the truth you would read carefully before writing. By the way, your English is getting worse or you are getting lazier when writing. It does you no good.

I’ve “spiked” multiple posts in this thread, that I decided not to send because they would just add to the already excessive drama. But, IMHO, you need to be called out on the above.

Demeaning and entirely off-topic insults like those quoted, and others in this thread, create a desire in me to ignore all of your posts.

Including those that have some worth.

Ad hominem does that to many people.

Carry on as you wish. Hope my English was up to your standards.

Last edited by reid (2008-08-05 19:56:30)

maniqui · 2008-08-05 20:02:09

Short version: zero, Destry, you should work out your differences and work together on the next TxB version. There is no better option than that. Two different TxB are just a waste of resources, and duplicated content. But… with you both (and with the help of any one willing to collaborate) working on the same project, TxB will probably be a dream come true.
And also, it’s the happiest end we can desire for this thread!

Long version:
I hope all this will happily end soon, with the announce of zero and Destry working together on the new, official, improved, cleaner, easy-to-use, and easy-to-collaborate version of the Textbook. :)
Best of both worlds.

Destry, it may be time to take one deep breath, and apologize if you feel it.
zero, the sames goes for you. BTW, have you already read this article about TxB on Destry’s site?

zero, you were the one not-too-happy (well, me too :) ) about the xPattern fork, and you argued it wasn’t good to divide efforts. Doesn’t the same applies here?
In fact, dividing efforts on documenting a piece of software doesn’t seem useful at all.

You have done and do many things for TxP.
Destry also did many things, and he is willing to do and collaborate again.
None of you have to demonstrate that you are willing and capable of doing things.

So, going back to TxB:
Couldn’t it be zero’s Textbook an stepping stone to the next version of TxB running on MW?
zero has done some reorganization and cleaned out some of the crap.

Destry’s strengths seems to be related to IA, knowledge of MW inner mechanisms, knowledge of wikis, and of course, TxP (he may be a bit outdated regarding some new TxP features). Personally, I also like his designs. Wion is one of the most beautiful sites I’ve seen. And the articles are also great.

zero is the man that does. He created TXPQ, he created TxP templates, now he also created a new textbook.
He is well versed on writing, he knows and loves TxP. Personally, I don’t like his approachs to design (aesthetically speaking, and sorry for being so direct) but zero knows content is the king, and so he does: he create content for us to learn enjoy, being it an interview to a community member, and article about a new txp tag/plugin, or a whole documentation site. I envy this man, he seems to never be procrastinating. I think his secret-not-so-secret is related to breathing.

zero · 2008-08-05 20:31:43

Reid, me and jukka have a history of name-calling, we understand each other. You should be able to see the funny side of it, too. Why did you delete the end of that sentence which showed it was done in good humour?

Julián, always the peacemaker :-)

The division is a bit different to xPattern because it is only temporary and aims to have only one Textbook. So long as we are sincere, our actions will not be in vain. The future’s bright, the future’s txp orange :-) (that’s from a well know ad slogan in UK. I just mean the future’s bright, the future’s good for txp, sorry to those who got the joke and I’ve now spoiled it ;) And yes, the secret is breathing! Let’s all keep breathing!

reid · 2008-08-05 21:40:34

zero wrote:

Reid, me and jukka have a history of name-calling, we understand each other. You should be able to see the funny side of it, too.

I see. So anyone who comes here should be aware of that, accept it, and dredge through it to get to anything relevant to the topic at hand.

Sorry, IMHO that was demeaning, insulting, unnecessary, and most importantly, unhelpful in an already heated thread.

maverick · 2008-08-05 22:30:16

fwiw

I’m pleased to see both Peter and Destry are making progress on the TxtBook upgrade – even if Destry isn’t ready to show all the work he’s done so far. I appreciate both making a contribution.

This thread is a bit tense. Some of the discussion seems better exchanged as private messages – the ROI for the community at large is low, as Mr. Dale indicated.

One of the characteristics and values I have appreciated about the Txp community, and the forums in particular, has been the ability to keep things civil even when disagreeing, and keeping the dialogue out of the gutter. I think it helps create a positive momentum for the existing community and a positive first impression for newcomers checking the forums out.

Sadly, I’m not sure this thread communicates all that positively, especially to new people.

zero wrote:

me and jukka have a history of name-calling, we understand each other.

I wondered if that was the case from your interchange (past and present), but wasn’t sure. It came across like a hostile exchange. Glad that was not the case.

As noted, Peter is an active, passionate, do-er with strong opinions. It appears to me that he may sense he is being marginalized as a participant in the MW redevelopment.

Destry has invested a lot of the years. I appreciate that he is able and willing to be active again. It appears to me that he may sense a lack of respect and appreciation. It sounds like he’s frustrated that he has not been given access to the .com redesign that is taking place.

I trust you guys can work things out. Life’s too short, and big picture-wise, you are after the same thing.

Looking forward to good things for Txp and Txbook

Mike

hcgtv · 2008-08-05 22:51:07

maverick wrote:

Sadly, I’m not sure this thread communicates all that positively, especially to new people.

Sorry if this may sidetrack this thread, we’ll be able to split it soon enough.

These conversations we have at times, where it’s like family quarreling does nothing for a new user. In actuality it’s noise that turns them off, makes them wonder if they should be here, fidgety, head for the door and jump into the back seat of the car to be sped away.

My suggestion is that we should hold these type of conversations in forums that are only allowed to be read by certain ranks of forum users. We have too much history here, a couple of shots of bourbon and it can get dicey ;)

maverick · 2008-08-05 23:08:24

hcgtv wrote:

we’ll be able to split it soon enough.

OT/Tangent – I had not realized PunBB was sold to a commercial company, nor that FluxBB was its open source fork. Are there plans to change over the forums to FluxBB sooner than later?

hcgtv – I agree. Personally I’d prefer it if conversations like this were to take place in a venue that didn’t scare off visitors, new adopters, etc.

Last edited by maverick (2008-08-05 23:08:43)

Gocom · 2008-08-05 23:15:59

zero wrote:

me and jukka have a history of name-calling, we understand each other.

Do we? :D Okay, we really do :), but as Maverick and reid pointed out, it might look really something else, like a real internet battle. Mather of fact, I think Gangsta Internet Battles are waste of time ;)

Keep it on the topic (like I’m best to say it aloud) :P Maybe I’m just a nutcase, but I think that this topic is like hockey goalie with butterfly techinique; goes fast, hectic, sensitive, low and drops down too easily :)

hakjoon · 2008-08-06 04:02:34

I guess in the end of the day, unless TxB is moving, some of this is my call. Which is odd because I’ve never really felt like I had any right to make any decisions about TxB. I always just saw my role as a mechanic (I’ve now obviously gone mad with power).

I don’t really no how to say this without potentially pissing somebody off, so please take this in the honest nature it’s intended. For me TxB is destry’s baby. He started the discussions about it and along with David_1cog did a majority share of the infrastructure work that drives the current site. I remember the early discussions that got the whole thing started. If he is inclined to become involved again I really want to give him the opportunity to do so.

This is not to discount Peter’s work. Like everyone here has said you are the new doer while we old timers mostly sit around shooing kids off the lawn. I really would like this to be a joint effort because I got to be honest if I need to choose I’m going to choose destry simply because of the time we’ve already working together. Peter and I haven’t really cooperated on anything yet.

Please work things out so I don’t have to make any decisions :)

It’s obvious the lack of cheese has gotten the best of the community.

zero · 2008-08-06 13:10:17

A couple of simple questions for you, Destry:

You say great headway on content discussion has been made in this thread. So you include namespaces with content?

You say you’ll open up your skin work when it gets further along. Fine. But isn’t the skin the last thing on the agenda? What about IA and the top-level organizational factors you have in mind? Surely they don’t include “thinking deeply into the words on each wiki page at this point” so can you share a paragraph about those with us?

maverick · 2008-08-06 15:13:19

Destry wrote:

I will certainly open up my skin work when it gets further along. No point in showing it before there’s anything to show.

Totally understood. My comment was only meant to show support for all the things you had listed as having done in a previous post. Just because something isn’t ready for people to “kick the tires”, doesn’t mean work has not taken place. It was meant to counter the criticism that you had not made your efforts public.

For the record, I’m not miffed one bit about not seeing the .com design.

Sorry to misinterpret.

I just wanted to make it clear what my thoughts are about the cohesiveness among the family of sites (like what WordPress does). . . .I’m not TeamTextpattern, so it’s not my call.

Understood its not your call. Agree with your thoughts about cohesiveness. They may not be clones, but should be themed for maximum impact.

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Re: [wiki] A New Textbook

#32 2008-08-05 18:24:00

Re: [wiki] A New Textbook

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Re: [wiki] A New Textbook

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