Cosmetic Surgery

Skubidu · 2006-10-04 20:16:33

Destry, thanks for your great posting!

I think we don’t need discussions about concrete designs at this point:

We need a concept for a new structure of the pages on the admin interface (improved usability).
We need the HTML to transform this new structure into the fundament of the refreshed design.

If these two point are well prepared, the look and feel is nothing more than good CSS and maybe some JavaScript.

I’m sure this process has to be moderated by someone. We need an open discussion between users, contributors and devs (every group has to participate at this point). It does not make sense to create one draft after the other without having talked about what the general conditions are. Right now, we have many ideas and many screenshots, but we still don’t have a concept. At least there is no official concept I know of.

I would welcome one of the devs (for example Mary) opening and guiding this goal-oriented discussion about the two points mentioned above. This way we – the normal users and contributors – could see how things are moving on. And the devs could see why certain things are discussed controversially.

Destry · 2006-10-04 21:41:00

Most likely my words of wisdump are a whole lot too late, yet if this was fall 2005, I would suggest the following very simple strategy for getting started with items 1 and 2 in my previous post:

Create a project launch point in the Community Projects index of the wiki; for example, Textpattern Admin Side Redevelopment (TASR). Et voila!
In the TASR page, create three sections:
1. Overview (briefly describes the effort and indicates who main contacts are)
2. Working Documents (a simple bulleted list of developing documents)
3. Resources (another bulleted list of whatever the community wanted to throw into the brainpool)
In the Working Documents section, start with two bullets for the following documents:
1. Project Specifications (criteria for code, usability, accessibility, … et cetera)
2. Project Methodology (chronological details about what happens when and by whom, flexible of course)
Community begins fleshing out the first document, Project Specifications. Someone perhaps steps up as a page editor to keep copy neat, but anyone can make comments either here or in the associated discussion page of the Project Specifications.
When the first document begins to take shape, the second document, Project Methodology, can begin to be drafted in similar fashion.
When the Project Specifications document is fairly locked down (or whenever) people with itchy palms can start their fancy mockups, upload them in the wiki, and add them to the Resources section (2.3 above) of the TASR page.

The wiki, as much as people seem to hate it (I’ll never understand why), is the perfect platform for this, and therefore addressing points 3 and 4 of my previous post. Shouldn’t be hard to see that things will quickly fall into place at that point. Of course a guiding voice from TeamTextpattern’s side of things would be necessary since ultimately things must be passed that way, but there you go.

As indicated, this isn’t fall 2005.

hazel · 2006-10-05 21:02:31

Just to second what Destry has eloquently stated.

Whether this work makes it into the next release is not so important. Some guiding documents for the future… would be good for everybody.

Just a summary of the discussion in this (and the ‘Facelift..’ threads) would be a good start. I will work on putting this up on the the TASR pages, along with links to the Flickr groups (may as well use their bandwidth :)

Hoping for some lead from the devs. And anyone interested could chime in, then we could get a contributors page going/announce it

Mary · 2006-10-06 01:31:15

Nils, Destry and hazel:

That’s just the thing: I have been and consistantly looking for input for over a year now. I’ve gotten back:

“Yeah, I like that.”
“No, I don’t like that.”
“Your work is crap. I won’t work with you.”
“Dean would do it better. Oh savior Dean, save us from this monster!”
“Someone should be doing something. In fact, here’s what I would do…”
Off-shoot efforts to chase after to find out what the hell is going on.
Suggestions for and new initiations of over-complicated systems of committees and paper-work. We all know how well that has worked for the wiki so far, which has a far more straight-forward thrust. We don’t need more unused wiki pages – that’s not a slight to you Destry, you know better than anyone else what the state of things are.

I’d much prefer more of the second item – with detail – and better still: input of new ideas.

I’ve been doing the work of usability and browser testing, in collaboration with those whom were at all interested in being cooperative. I’ve been doing the work of what users like and don’t like by asking, as stupid as you may think that is. I’m also determined not to slap “2.0” on it or copy someone else’s admin ui (if you want that ui – use that program).

I have ~~deleted~~ (that’s not the word I meant) already acheived consensus (of those whom have actually responded) of a few items, such as “What’s the most usable base font size for this user group?” I have found out and am still finding out what people like and want.

There will always be the naysayers, and quite frankly we don’t need more of it and I’m sick of such distaste for mature discussion.

You want to know what you (as an individual) can do to help, specifically? Ask. List what you could contribute/offer and then you can be given a more specific answer. When the question is open – as it has been – give input on the actual topic at hand: what the admin ui should act and feel like.

The so-called “invisible workflow” isn’t invisible, but completely overlooked. Planning is all well and good, but there is also such a thing as over-planning and getting nothing real achieved – something this community has a bad track record for. Our greatest successes have been when we did the necessary planning, but then got our hands dirty. In that respect I am a get-things-done type of person, and getting very frustrated because it doesn’t have to be so rediculously difficult as people are making it.

I’ve been sitting here, working and waiting. Won’t someone please join me in the actual work, instead of railing against me (or just ignoring me) at every opportunity? Once again, I’m asking, can we please move on and get something real accomplished?

Last edited by Mary (2006-10-06 01:33:16)

jm · 2006-10-06 01:49:37

Mary, I’ve got time to contribute to re-coding (removing inline styles, replicating the current table-layout with CSS), or re-organizing any HTML and CSS (and a little JS). Would it be best to start on the crockery or 4.0.4 version?

‘Dean would do it better. Oh savior Dean, save us from this monster!’

:D

Last edited by jm (2006-10-06 01:50:24)

hcgtv · 2006-10-06 01:54:21

Mary wrote:

You want to know what you (as an individual) can do to help, specifically? Ask. List what you could contribute/offer and then you can be given a more specific answer.

I can help test things out, you give me access to the code, I’ll install it and give you some feedback. I have installed, tested and played with, just about every system out there, I know the good and bad of each, there is no one system that does it best.

That’s all I can do, offer my critique.

RussLipton · 2006-10-06 01:55:18

My apologies; haven’t been a do-er due to press of other responsibilities. I very much appreciate all that so many have done to contribute to TxP; not least you Mary! Don’t let people like me get to you ;-).

Mary · 2006-10-06 02:35:50

Thank you guys, I was beginning to think it was a lost cause.

Crockery. We can use crockery, and at some point send patches back and forth to test an evaluate. As we get closer to what would be more final (as “final” as things get in crockery…) I can start making commits (at which point things are able to move even faster). Crockery actually needs some catching up to the dev branch, but it is presently not very far off markup-wise. Hopefully I can squeeze some more time in to work on that.

At present we’re still in a concept stage. I’ve been working soley on changing the “wrapper” of the admin (both the look as well as converting to better markup) thus far, as what that looks like will determine how “the middle bit” needs to change. I would very much like to drop those tables too.

We now have the benefit of jQuery as well, which means there’s a little more the core can be doing, but a LOT more that admin-side plugins can achieve – or at least, achieve with less work. Consider it a secondary priority: we should try and make the admin as accessible as possible without JavaScript, then soup it up (i.e.: make things even smoother but not “flashy”). Part of that will be retroactive work, to make the existing stuff (that is staying) more accessible. For example, getting rid of “display: none” in inline CSS, as we were chatting earlier. I’ve been experimenting with that aspect and it works very well.

Once we have the new design worked out, then the markup, then I’ll very likely need more help making a tableless “legacy” theme for those who don’t want to part with current look.

My biggest lack is how much I can test anything – I don’t have a Mac or Safari, etc. Philippe has been extremely helpful in the past with that respect. There are times I want to tear my hair out because of a certain browser… I can also try my best to use something as if I were a new user, but that’s pretty difficult to do. Fresh eyes are always better at picking out weak areas or an approach being overlooked. So don’t feel you necessarily have to be a do-all, there’s certainly something anyone could be doing.

Jon and Bert: I’ll see whom else is interested (hopefully a few more) and then I’ll contact you via email (your forum email address).

aarplane · 2006-10-06 03:59:57

My biggest lack is how much I can test anything

I’ll be more than glad to help test. I have a Mac and Safari.

Skubidu · 2006-10-06 07:21:17

I’ve been sitting here, working and waiting. Won’t someone please join me in the actual work, instead of railing against me (or just ignoring me) at every opportunity? Once again, I’m asking, can we please move on and get something real accomplished?

Mary, I appreciate all your work! I often said that and I have been giving feedback on the things I have been able to see.
I just can say that for me it would be helpful to know where you’re working on in concrete (seeing some HTML or CSS). Then it would be easier to test things or create alternatives if it seem to be helpful for the discussion.

I don’t know the HTML for the navigation for example. And what I wanted to say in my last post was, that it is more important to discuss how things are applied in the HTML than to argue if there has to be a pixel more here or there.

Just tell me what and where to look at (HTML, CSS, structure) :o)

Last edited by Skubidu (2006-10-06 07:21:38)

Destry · 2006-10-06 11:56:29

Mary, Mary, Mary…I hope you don’t think I was railing against you, that’s not the case at all. I was speaking bipartisanly, with a nod to both sides of the fence. Yes, I threw in some irony (like the “2005” thing), but it was irony, nothing more, and it was meant for that side of the fence. ;)

I wanted to clarify some other things too about planning, “paperwork,” and so forth because they are important when “mature” people are involved, but specifically such foundation is important because most folks will put the square peg in the round hole everytime without it. Two simple documents about specifications and approach is hardly volumes; it’s guidance for those many folks who need it.

Of course you’re right, there is another important part, and that is individual commitment and follow-through. Without that, even the most concise, clearly written plan is meaningless, but that’s not the paperwork’s fault. Unfortunately, most online communities experience a dominating percentage of log lumps and not many tree trimmers.

One more observation, and I’m just being fair to the situation here, don’t take it personally. I see a lot of people working on the admin interface independently from the much invested work you’ve done up to this point. Why do you think that is? Well, one reason might be because there’s no paperwork somewhere that tells folks there’s already a plan in process, or what that plan is, or what has been done. You can’t just wait for people to “ask,” you have to put up a Help Wanted sign and advertise it. Otherwise, you get all the offshoot efforts you see.

One thing for sure, community organization is like herding cats.

P.S. Everyone, invest your admin-side interests and time with Mary on this effort with whatever it is she needs your help with. If you don’t know, ask her, and maybe some paperwork will materialize from some motivated individual to keep the rest of the community in light.

(And your right again, Mary, I do know. Sheesh, TextBook, what a slinky it’s been. The right tool in the wrong community, apparently.)

Mary · 2006-10-07 15:53:42

I just can say that for me it would be helpful to know where you’re working on in concrete (seeing some HTML or CSS).

Nils, as I said, “At present we’re still in a concept stage.” You may’ve noticed it’s not in svn yet, and that is why. It’s rather difficult to give something to test which doesn’t exist in a more final state – otherwise I would have “advertised”. I’m don’t want to post anything for testing that might change tomorrow, you see? That’d be wasting everyone’s time. We can’t get there until there is more consensus on the actual design, and it seems we’re nowhere near that.

I hope you don’t think I was railing against you, that’s not the case at all.

I don’t, I wasn’t referring to you.

I’d have to repeat what I’ve said before, that we’re still in a concept stage. Or, consider it brainstorming. To anyone that’s done this before, the process is pretty simple, but if someone wants to invent such paperwork, if it makes them feel better or more prepared or whatever, they can do that. In another situation I’d feel very different, I just personally don’t see how it would benefit here, since it hasn’t worked up ‘till now. If anyone doesn’t understand where I’m coming from on this, just chalk it up to being cynical because you’ve been bitten too many times.

shishira · 2006-10-09 10:49:44

Many a times i have felt bad for not having participated in these discussions. Mary do count me in for the testing. Thanks

hazel · 2006-10-17 23:02:24

Hi everyone,

I have a suggestion. Rather than trying to reach a concensus on the visual design, or decide what new features to implement, how about we just focus on getting the markup cleaned up?

That way we at least have a solid foundation on which to build, and it’s a realistic and achievable step to get things moving.

We could use the latest 4.0.4 release as a base, with each of us tackling just one page (areas/actions) or element (header nav, tables, lists).

We wouldn’t need to touch the source-code, just save the rendered HTML page and rework it into semantic markup with agreed id/class naming conventions (see below).

The process could work as follows:

We get a roll call of interested parties
The pages/elements are allocated
We pin down some naming conventions/structure

Everyone gets a clean 4.0.4 install
You save the rendered HTML of your page/element
You rework it into semantic markup
You post the HTML here for agreement

We eventually have all the pages/elements reworked and agreed.
Mary(?) could work this into the actual source (for 4.0.5 ;)

rloaderro · 2006-10-17 23:26:24

hazel wrote:

We pin down some naming conventions/structure

I think this is a smart approach and i’m definitely game. I have a lot of reference regarding XHTML and CSS naming conventions – if others agree with this approach I’d be happy to post it here or in the wiki..

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#76 2006-10-04 20:16:33

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#77 2006-10-04 21:41:00

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#78 2006-10-05 21:02:31

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#79 2006-10-06 01:31:15

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#80 2006-10-06 01:49:37

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#81 2006-10-06 01:54:21

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#82 2006-10-06 01:55:18

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#83 2006-10-06 02:35:50

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#84 2006-10-06 03:59:57

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#85 2006-10-06 07:21:17

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#86 2006-10-06 11:56:29

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#87 2006-10-07 15:53:42

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#88 2006-10-09 10:49:44

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#89 2006-10-17 23:02:24

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#90 2006-10-17 23:26:24

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

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