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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
I respect the ‘coder’s viewpoint’ on this, because even though I don’t really understand txp and can’t use it very well, I can sense intuitively that its a very lean, mean, and efficient CMS – more so than Wordpress.
As a general observation though, I’d say it lacks aesthetics and use-ability for non-coder people – and a balanced use of white space is fundamental. So txp also looks very lean, mean, and efficient – not much to see, because its hidden away in the tabs and sub-tabs – which is clever from the point of view of ‘information design’, but not always clever for use-ability. If I have a favourite book I read every day, I’ll leave it on my couch where I can reach it with my arm – I don’t want to keep standing up and walking into another room to my book case.
I think it comes down to how much you use something. If you need image-management every time you use txp, then you need it as much as you need the text-entry box, and you don’t want to go clicking around the tabs to open it. From my point of view, as a photo site txp user, I would love to have a constantly available image-management method – like that book I leave on my couch.
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
As a general observation though, I’d say it lacks aesthetics and use-ability for non-coder people – and a balanced use of white space is fundamental. So txp also looks very lean, mean, and efficient – not much to see, because its hidden away in the tabs and sub-tabs – which is clever from the point of view of ‘information design’, but not always clever for use-ability.
I totaly agree on that, if you are talking of the “advanced options” and that stuff by saying “tabs”.
From my point of view, as a photo site txp user, I would love to have a constantly available image-management method – like that book I leave on my couch.
James, you are right with your book metaphor. You are right that there should be image management methods on the right tab and you are also right that they should not be hidden (as the article image is by now, for example).
I would like to distinguish between two things: There are article related image management methods (like inserting images in articles) and there are other methods that are article independent (image categories etc.). I just want to warn to completely combine the article and the image tab. It would be nice to have a short cut for image uploads etc. on the write tab, but we should not integrate all the image stuff in the article tab – I think it simply would be to complex.
In my opinion the task is to create an easy and usable image inserting method on the article tab – it has to be an understandable system, without this crazy “tab hopping” you need today to find an image, get the image id, return to the write tab an insert the id to get an article image. But nevertheless I’m convinced that the article and the image management should stay separated.
If you need image-management every time you use txp, then you need it as much as you need the text-entry box, and you don’t want to go clicking around the tabs to open it.
I understand that. But I think if we drop the separation of images and articles, other people who are creating download or link sites would say “hey! I want the same for links/downloads”. This would end up in one big article tab with everything on it – well, that’s at least what I fear.
Please correct my if I misunderstood anything… English is not my native language and perhaps I’m not getting all the details and we’re talking about the same things already :)
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
Bastian Wrote:
And if make it part of txp img wizard should make use of Prototype -> Rico or whatever. Just to make sure that it still works in two years. One of the big open source JS libaries will probaly updated while the next years, nobody knows who updates my handcoded ajax functions.
I would definitely recommend this. Plus prototype is such a joy to use. The Yahoo UI Library is looking pretty nice too. The ajax connectors look a lot like prototype.
Skubidu Wrote:
But I think if we drop the separation of images and articles, other people who are creating download or link sites would say “hey! I want the same for links/downloads”.
We could of course go through a similar process for files. Remember files where not part of TXP originally. That was all developed as a hack that got added to the core (this was before admin side plugins if I remeber correctly). ‘Upm_file_packets”:http://www.upm-plugins.com/upm-file-packets has demonstrated that there is a desire for the ability to attach files to articles too. That’s another project though :)
I can see an argument for moving some of these article association tools (like article_image) to teh area under the write tab. since its is kind of dead space, which could be used for a “associated objects” section or something. Although I do think something like Bastian’s plugin could handle most of teh functionality for inserting/attaching images.
Shoving is the answer – pusher robot
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#94 2006-03-22 15:12:26
- igner
- Plugin Author
- Registered: 2004-06-03
- Posts: 337
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
Just a quick note – for anything that is ultimately intended as CORE functionality, hacks / patches are preferable to plugins, as a plugin code is far enough different from core code that it frequently / generally requires complete rewriting to take a plugin concept and incorporate it in the core.
I’d chime in for keeping the image management separate from the write tab. While I can see a lot of value in adding a quick upload option (that prototype interface Bastian is a nice start), I’d rather not have to contend with full management functionality on the write tab.
And then my dog ate my badger, and the love was lost.
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
igner wrote:
While I can see a lot of value in adding a quick upload option (that prototype interface Bastian is a nice start), I’d rather not have to contend with full management functionality on the write tab.
Love the <a href=“http://textpattern.net/wiki/index.php?title=Img_Wizard”>interface</a> too. What I would also like to see in there is an edit image option too. ie crop, thumbnail, rotate, resize
Yiannis
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I do my best editing after I click on the submit button.
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
I want to emphasise the difference between efficient ‘information management’, and use-ability. Having everything hidden away in the tabs is efficient, and elegant. However, use-ability is a different matter.
If this development is for people like myself – using images every time I use txp – then there needs to be the option to have image management as a permanent part of the interface, like you see in Wordpress. There’s really no way round this. If this is for serious image management it’s just as important as the text entry box, so it shouldn’t be hidden away in the tabs. So for example, something like Bastian’s interface, but permanently open, underneath the text entry box…..
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
The new wordpress little upload area is pretty nice, but does clicking a link to get to the interface create that much more work? (I’m legitimately asking here, I don’t deal with a ton of images)
I think having the interface permanently open at the bottom is worth considering though. There is space down there.
Shoving is the answer – pusher robot
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
something like Bastian’s interface, but permanently open, underneath the text entry box…..
I had not in mind that it should be opened permanent.
For my usage of txp it should open on demand and elsewhere hidden.
Is permanently open an option for james only, or is there anybody else?
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Re: Improving TXP Image Management
Bas: there doesn’t seem to be any other serious image users here at the forums. I’ve seen a few txp photo blogs, but those people don’t post here much, if at all.
It does make a difference, if you have to click to open up image management. Think of it like this: would you get fed up, if you had to click a tab to open the text entry box, every time you fired up txp? I think questions of interface design and use-ability are vital for future txp development. The reason why txp image handling is so bad is because design and use-ability were neglected or ignored – but that can change!
It comes down to how much it will be used. If its used 80, 90, 100% of the time, then image handling needs to be open permanently, like the text box, and not hidden away. There’s plenty of white space to make use of to build a clean, simple and efficient interface.
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#100 2006-03-24 20:12:35
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
James, just wanted to say how nice your photographs are, very impressive.
What are you using to display them?
We Love TXP . TXP Themes . TXP Tags . TXP Planet . TXP Make
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#101 2006-03-24 22:17:01
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
@James: How about having an option to show the img wizard thing above the body-textarea.
Make it user’s choice to load it on click or on default.
Is that working for you?
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#102 2006-03-25 09:04:00
- Logoleptic
- Plugin Author
- From: Kansas, USA
- Registered: 2004-02-29
- Posts: 482
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
I like users’ choice much better than display-by-default, myself. I’m using this on client sites, most of which are not photo-centric. Having more textareas and form fields on the screen would just confuse things for them.
Personally, I think display-by-default should be relegated to a plugin rather than even being made an option. That’s where features with appeal to a minority of users belong, not in the core.
(prepares for a joke and/or flame about persecuting the minority)
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#103 2006-03-25 18:14:31
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
Thanks Bert. Don’t understand your question though…my sites are built using txp – is that what you meant?
Bastian wrote:
@James: How about having an option to show the img wizard thing above the body-textarea.
Make it user’s choice to load it on click or on default.
Is that working for you?
Optional would be OK Bas., and probably above the textarea would be better than below.
I really think this should be implemented.
Most people who post at this forum are coders and developers, and it’s time to ‘soften’ and expand the txp design so its more user-friendly – especially for images.
So yes, if it’s an option that would be OK.
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#104 2006-03-26 21:32:17
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
jameslomax wrote:
I want to emphasise the difference between efficient ‘information management’, and use-ability. Having everything hidden away in the tabs is efficient, and elegant. However, use-ability is a different matter.
Yes, this is true, and I have emphasized this myself before, but there is an issue with the “wordpress” way of thinking here and that is that when one does have hundreds of images, it can be (I foresee it being) unwieldy to place that kind of handling along side (within?) the write tab. I have been “converted” to thinking about image management as many (most?) of the other CMS’ deal with image management – placing it in its own area.
However, I like to think laterally here. You could help me think outside the box Jameslomax by providing alternatives to the wordpress approach which would NOT be unwieldy with large amount of images?
I have often thought that being able to open a popup which acts like a “finder – OSX” or a “Win-Explorer Mcrsft” and lets you navigate to your image and Add attributes to it, and then place it. This is the way that WEB GUI works.
The issue becomes that a design for better image management MUST be expansive and cover the needs of the greatest number of users.
Perhaps the write tab could be tied to the image tab and the two could be loaded simultaneously so that switching between the two was seamless and more like using a tabbed browser?
There’s really no way round this. If this is for serious image management…
I suggest staying as flexible as possible Jameslomax, there is rarely “NO way around” things like this.
:)
Matthew
- I am Squared Eye and I
am launchinghave launched Pattern Tap
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#105 2006-03-27 17:59:47
Re: Improving TXP Image Management
Yes the point about bulk handling within a limited ‘window’ is valid. But it seems to me, it could be done if its well organised – for example, allowing for category and date navigation.
Re. ‘greatest number of users’, that’s also my viewpoint – and also, understanding that most people at these forums are coders and developers, rather than only semi-skilled users. Just above for example, someone writes about doing stuff in txp for clients. Which is not the same thing as end-user requirements.
Re. ‘no way round this’, please see that remark in context: what I’m saying is, the use-ability requirements have to be taken into consideration. My impression is that so far, txp has been a very disciplined project by clever coders. And the result is a lean, mean, and efficient cms that’s great for developers to use building a variety of sites. Thats one thing. Its another thing again, to consider the interface as its used and experienced by the average txp novice.
Anyway, this isn’t really adding anything to the dialogue now…..I’ve made my point, which is that as a novice user I’d like image management to be permanently available without clicking around any tabs to open it up: because its just as important, for me, and for anyone who uses images extensively, as the text area. So by all means make this feature optional, like Bas suggests, but I would urge developers to consider interface use-ability, not just information management.
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