[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Sencer · 2006-02-27 10:14:48

1. Action : Extend the project Team to other areas than development => Why : Allocate resources more efficiently, allow dev team to focus on dev work

I feel like my post is being ignored. There are already plenty of people working on textpattern the project that have nothing to do with us developers. Documentation is one area. If you go back to my post on page 6, I have asked a concrete question on how the suggestions are going to improve what is being done in that specific area, and why the same things cannot be done today within the current structure. I haven’t seen a response, yet.

2. Action : Create a project team board on the forums => Why : Coordinate efforts between Textpattern’s contributors, Help contributors to have a clear view of development process (which in turn means they can communicate with the community).

I think that starting with a community map as has been suggested before is a good idea. I have written in my post on page.6 about how organisational theory makes a distinction between coordination and communication. And how – if communication between the different parts of the textpattern project needs improvement – this can already been done today without any interference by the devs or Dean.

As long as the suggested board, does not have the authority to tell me what to do, I don’t see what the need for it to do anythin other than communication. And communication can be done freely today, with all the people working on textpattern-related sites/projects.
If some people contributing today (or who plan to in the future) want mediators, then those people should get together and decide on that. I don’t have a preference in terms of talking with the actual people contributing or mediators (I lean o the former, but both is fine for me).

3. Action : Have a montly users mailing list newsletter => Why : Give users an overview of what gets done and what is planned (not talking roadmap here, but general orientations).

For the software we do that in in the dev-weblog. For the project this could be done by the people who realize the community-map. Magazine or developer-weblog either one could be used for that. There’s even the forum, which for example Destry is already using for just this kind of thing.
Again, can be done today.

I feel like that the interest is really more about the “exclusive resources” as I have dubbed them before. A lot of those are in the hands of people in the community, I don’t see why that should be socialised away from them and into the hands of a committee. As for those resources that rest exclusively with Dean (some of which are delegated to the devs), I still have not seen a convincing argument for which exact resources are a bottleneck with which exact activities that need to get done, but can’t get done (efficiently?) today. Is access to the repository a bottleneck? It contains a) software and b) default theme /admin layout, I have commented on how for both there will be some kind of community involvement, once crockery is at a stage where that actually makes sense.

@alexandra:

Dear zem, i regard myself as a ‘core’ contributer to TXP, feeling dedicated to the project, having spent countless hours to help people with TXP, building up the community and encouraging people to contribute or use TXP.

And I have felt insulted by the initial post as well. Which is why it took me > 2 days and 3 attempts to write something that is more productive and less defensive. You have to read the posts in a way to understand what the person saying it is trying to achieve, and look beyond unintended meanings. If we’re going to be constuctive in this discussion that’s the only way for it to happen.

zem wrote:

Please, don’t insult those who have spent time and effort building resources for Textpattern, [b]by pretending that they don’t exist; or, worse, that the thing that is lacking is a steering committee[/b].

If you haven’t done either of what is stated after the “by”, than there is absolutely no point in feeling attacked by it. What he meant was, that it’s silly, to argue that we “need a way for involving the community” (because that has always been happening, it’s only about the “how” not the if), and that what is lacking is often not a steering commitee/board, but simply more people getting involved. Again look at my initial post (page 6) what I wrote about documentation: Destry has been exercising very good leadership in that area, what is most likely needed there is for more contributors to spend time with it, not another person who “coordinates Destry with xyz”. I think that’s the gist of what zem was saying, I doubt his aim was to say “alexandra hasn’t contributed anyhting”.
Just as the initial post didn’t aim to say the devs got textpattern off-track, are lousy at communication, don’t respond to user-requests and we need better people to tell those suckers what to do, yet that’s how it comes across at times. Though I know well that the points that are trying to be argued are other ones. Let’s try and keep this thread on track. ;)

davidm · 2006-02-27 10:51:09

Goodbye guys ! It’s been a great adventure :D

Niconemo · 2006-02-27 10:56:42

I have no personnal opinion about all that today (and as a single user I’m probably not supposed to). But I can see two things :

IMO there was no meaning intention to insult anyone (or to make revolution, or anything so) in the initial post, but I can understand it can be taken bad in a way, if not considering who wrote it.
and everybody here wants txp to be better and better. It’s just a discussion. Maybe the initial post is wrong, maybe, there are good things to take in it… I don’t know. But please don’t make (or think there are) two opposite sides. To be united doen’t mean having the same opinion on every point.

Let’s discuss

Edit.

Goodbye guys ! It’s been a great adventure :D

Oh sh*t ! Please David take time to reconsider it !

Last edited by Niconemo (2006-02-27 11:00:00)

alexandra · 2006-02-27 11:17:52

@David, yes Niconemo is right, please reconsider. Changes are on it´s way :)

Sencer · 2006-02-27 11:28:54

I just got off the phone with alexandra, and indeed, sometimes written communication can make things so much more complicated…

I think a lot of heated discussion in this thread revolved around the misunderstanding of one word/term. Whenever I read project team board I was thinking of a board (as in comittee) with appointed people with authority of all the other people involved. I think this is why zem also mentioned the bureaucratic drawbacks of such an idea.

After talking with alexandra, I got it that what was being suggested was a “project team board” as in subforum where people can talk. This of course is absolutely no problem and doesn’t clash with neither the way things are, nor how some feel they should be. Quite the opposite! It’ll be helpful either way. Which is why we already did the same thing for Documentation a while back.

Action:

In light of that, I’ll be opening a temporary subforum now, open for everybody, which should help in getting all the names and nicks people together that are currently contributing to Textpattern in different avenues, and of people that have an interest in contributing more time and work consistently. Mid-term the actual place for coordination and communication will shift to one or multiple private forums so as to have some privacy and being able to talk more openly.

First effort in that subforum will be to get a list of all the people that are already or want to in the future consistently do work and help around textpattern, and to create a cozy place for those people to talk. It may even turn out to be a place of birth for the community-map idea as well, who knows. ;)

Skubidu · 2006-02-27 11:39:34

After talking with alexandra, I got it that what was being suggested was a “project team board” as in subforum where people can talk. This of course is absolutely no problem and doesn’t clash with neither the way things are, nor how some feel they should be. Quite the opposite! It’ll be helpful either way. Which is why we already did the same thing for Documentation a while back.

Well, what was the name of this movie?! “Lost in Translation” ;)
Thanks, Alex and Sencer, for taking a phone and talking in your native language.
Manchmal wird’s dadurch viel einfacher. Danke!

alexandra · 2006-02-27 12:35:52

Yeah honestly we were a bit ‘Lost in Translation’ here :)

I know the discussion sucked a bit though, who does not discuss controversial on and off ;) ?
As far as i am concerned, we can close this thread.

Peace and have a nice day :)

neutrino · 2006-02-27 13:37:15

@Zem

Actually I think a lot of what problems there are are being articulated here. If there’s resistance to seeing that I don’t know what to say. If it’s not clear enough, it’s not code, it’s human. (Even your code is organized tho, eh? The code calls on functions to accomplish certain tasks.) I get what you mean about Animal Farm but there are good minds here—doesn’t have to go that way.

I do work in local government but I am not a fan of it. It has certain purpose and function (delivering water and taking away sewage, for example). These things need to be efficient or else you have disease. The rest of it is about “keeping the peace”. Facilitating people.

I think maybe the community has reached a point where its too big to be handled in the old ways. People don’t know each other as well as you and David and Mary and Dean know each other. There have to be new methods for handling “us”. So you don’t have to get involved in conversations like this.

Good start with the new forum, BTW.

TheEric · 2006-02-27 14:03:13

> Regardless of intentions, I can tell you that there are valuable Textpattern contributors who are frustrated and insulted at seeing their
>efforts being ignored or discarded.

.. as there are users, frustrated with the information elitism prevalent with Textpattern.

Me: Elements? What was that?

Developer: You’ll get it when you get it – I’m working on it when I feel like it. I don’t get PAID to do this you know. Be grateful for what you have and sit down and shut up.

Obviously this isn’t something that is exactly said, but is indeed the feeling I get from reading certain posts.

I’ve almost made my decision. I’ve been contemplating the switch to Expression Engine, and the decision is becoming clearer.

Sencer · 2006-02-27 14:12:10

Me: Elements? What was that? Developer: You’ll get it when you get it – I’m working on it when I feel like it. I don’t get PAID to do this you know. Be grateful for what you have and sit down and shut up.

Utter Nonsense. Elements was explained in the detail on the weblog:
http://textpattern.com/weblog/144/textpattern-elements

That’s the point. We’re comunicating, that which we can communicate. There is neither any elitism nor any “masterplan-secrecy” involved. If we’re not communicating on something, then most likely, because we can’t (yet).

TheEric · 2006-02-27 14:17:49

Posted Nov 15, 03:54 am

Forgive me. I didn’t realize four months between updates was acceptable.

wet · 2006-02-27 14:26:19

Why wasn’t that acceptable? You didn’t even know of it until today, so probably weren’t waiting for it anyway.

Elements are a part of the internal textpattern infrastructure which would neither cause nor hinder additional functionality per se, so they will have little impact on end users in the short run.

Last edited by wet (2006-02-27 14:26:46)

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#157 2006-02-27 10:14:48

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#158 2006-02-27 10:51:09

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#159 2006-02-27 10:56:42

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#160 2006-02-27 11:17:52

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#161 2006-02-27 11:28:54

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#162 2006-02-27 11:39:34

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#163 2006-02-27 12:35:52

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#164 2006-02-27 13:37:15

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#165 2006-02-27 14:03:13

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#166 2006-02-27 14:12:10

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#167 2006-02-27 14:17:49

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