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#1 2019-05-28 15:19:43

colak
Admin
From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 7,246
Website

W3C lost

Shocking news.

[WHATWG], an industry group made up the four major browser vendors, such as Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla, have won a tug-of-war with the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the standards body for the World Wide Web, effectively proving that without their support, the W3C’s ability to regulate web standards is nonexistent. www.zdnet.com/article/browser-vendors-win-war-with-w3c-over-html-and-dom-standards/

This means that the W3C will no longer set the standards but business will. We all know what will happen next. WHATWG, re-twitted a slightly less alarming post from W3C but Wikipedia returns us to reality.

WHATWG has a small, invitation-only oversight committee called “Members”, which has the power to impeach the editor of the specifications. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHATWG


Yiannis
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neme.org | hblack.net | LABS | State Machines | Respbublika! | NeMe @ github

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#2 2019-05-29 02:38:50

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,173
Website

Re: W3C lost

July 7, 2009:

The work on XHTML2 started at a time when the technology underlying the Web (as experienced by the bulk of users and content providers) was stagnating. Internet Explorer had a monopoly or near-monopoly in the Web browser market. Microsoft was slowing development of new versions of Internet Explorer in the hope that Web-based applications would not be able to compete with Windows applications, and Windows applications would keep people locked in to the Windows operating system. Thus XHTML2 was developed with no expectation that the leading Web browser would ever implement it. In that environment, other groups working on Web technologies kept working with other browser makers, in the hope that the success of their technology in other browsers would eventually pressure Microsoft into implementing. However, the developers of XHTML took a more extreme position: they wanted to build a separate Web, of their own technology, designed “the right way.” Their Web technology would be browsed with different software that would eventually displace current Web browsers—all current Web browsers. This showed when members of the group spoke to authors: they showed uses that didn’t depend on browsers implementing HTML, and emphasized those uses, to try to build up a critical mass of users. The working group became hostile to Web browser implementors, even those implementors who were trying to move the Web forward. They discouraged those implementors from participating, and didn’t think about what might get those implementors back into their fold. – ex-HTML

March 13, 2018:

With the W3C advancing DOM 4.1 to CR status, the organization’s dwindling clout has become apparent. The browsers made by Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla account for more than 90 per cent of mobile and of desktop market share by some measures. If they act together, the technology they support becomes a de facto standard; and the technology they ignore is left in limbo. – Go away, kid, you bother me: Apple, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla kick W3C nerds to the curb

Today, May 28, 2019:

Most major browsers are now built on the Chromium software code base that Google maintains. Opera, an indie browser that’s been used by techies for years, swapped its code base for Chromium in 2013. Even Microsoft is making the switch this year. That creates a snowball effect, where fewer web developers build for niche browsers, leading those browsers to switch over to Chromium to avoid getting left behind. – Google’s Chrome Becomes Web ‘Gatekeeper’ and Rivals Complain

If you read Google’s objection to the proposed DOM 4.1 standard, it actually only passed by a 14-12 vote. You can also read the objections from Microsoft and Apple. None of them are very specific, other than complaining about the process.

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#3 2019-05-29 04:06:16

colak
Admin
From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 7,246
Website

Re: W3C lost

Hi Michael,

W3C is Independent but it also acted as an overseer for web standards be it in its very slow pace. W3C has members worldwide, and it is a forum where everybody has a voice.

WHATWG is a silicon valley based oligarchy.

I feel that I’m in a real minority as nobody in my networks is actually reacting to this takeover.


Yiannis
——————————
neme.org | hblack.net | LABS | State Machines | Respbublika! | NeMe @ github

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#4 2019-05-29 08:24:56

phiw13
Plugin Author
From: Japan
Registered: 2004-02-27
Posts: 1,653
Website

Re: W3C lost

colak wrote #318280:

Hi Michael,

W3C is Independent but it also acted as an overseer for web standards be it in its very slow pace. W3C has members worldwide, and it is a forum where everybody has a voice.

WHATWG is a silicon valley based oligarchy.

I feel that I’m in a real minority as nobody in my networks is actually reacting to this takeover.

So that long slow coup by the silicon valley oligarchy is finally coming to an end ? I saw the news flashing by in feed reader yesterday, that press text from W3C that desperately tried to save face. All we’re left with is the enlightened dictatorship of Google (a more realistic description than that Bloomberg take mentioned by Michael above). Not much to look forward too.

(i find my self more using non-html-dom / web technologies to communicate, search/find information etc)

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#5 2019-05-30 02:09:01

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 1,173
Website

Re: W3C lost

colak wrote #318280:

Hi Michael,

W3C is Independent but it also acted as an overseer for web standards be it in its very slow pace. W3C has members worldwide, and it is a forum where everybody has a voice.

WHATWG is a silicon valley based oligarchy.

I feel that I’m in a real minority as nobody in my networks is actually reacting to this takeover.

I’ve been thinking about this all day.

The first browser I used was Lynx, back when you connected to the Internet over text-based freenets (at least here in the US).

Then I switched to Netscape Navigator 0.8.x and watched it progress to 1.0 and all the way to 4.77. Navigator was, of course, created by the former developers of NCSA Mosaic, the first graphical browser. I do remember running it but just for fun.

When I bought a new PC in December 1995, I remember using Microsoft’s Word browser to download Netscape.

Then the battle between Internet Explorer and Navigator raged for a while. Until Netscape bet wrong on Javascript Style Sheets in 4.0, came up with the crazy Constellation project, and then got bogged down on the new engine that eventually became Mozilla.

As soon as Microsoft decided they won, they killed IE with 6.0. And then declared the future would be Apps (before Apple did the same thing with IOS).

Then Mozilla rose from the ashes of Netscape, and released their browser. Which quickly got bogged down with features until the rebel faction released Firefox.

And at some point Opera appeared.

Apple, realizing they needed a better browser than IE for the Mac, chose the KHTML engine from the KDE Desktop Environment that powered Konqueror. And forked it into Webkit to power Safari.

Eventually Google decided to release their own Webkit based browser, Chrome. Eventually forking Webkit into Blink.

Opera died and became Vivaldi, based on Blink.

IE became Edge and was primarily used to download Chrome and occasionally Firefox. And is now also based on Blink.

So the WhatWG consists of:

Mozilla – who still uses their Gecko Engine.

Apple – who still uses their Webkit Engine.

Google – who still uses their Blink Engine. Except on IOS, where Apple forces them to use Webkit.

Microsoft – who now uses Blink.

There are a few minor browsers in Linux that do their own thing but there really hasn’t been a non-oligarchy widely used browser since before the WhatWG was formed.

It seems like this was always sort of inevitable.

Bonus – for anyone super-geeky, you might enjoy this Browser Vendor panel from 2016. I remember watching it back at the time.

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#6 2019-05-30 09:44:41

philwareham
Core designer
From: Farnham, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,192
Website

Re: W3C lost

Nice summary Michael! Former Mosaic user here, back in the eons of time.

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#7 2019-05-31 11:03:00

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,193
Website

Re: W3C lost

I think you should change subject title to W3C Lost, Google Won, as much as that’s hard to read.

So now that Googlr has dominant market share with Chrome, it’s not surprising their preventing third-party ad-blocking on the free browser. Want that privilege, you’ll have to pay for it.

Even more worrisome is that it’s unclear how much of Manifest v3 will be adopted in Firefox. (There’s a thread on this in FF forums somewhere.)

Needless to say this is freaking a lot of people out who rely on uBlock, Badger, uMatrix, etc. The fediverse is lit up. ?


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#8 2019-05-31 11:38:34

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,193
Website

Re: W3C lost

I might have to take my dunce cap off soon and figure this out to block ads for everyone in the house. Pie-hole


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#9 2019-05-31 11:56:34

phiw13
Plugin Author
From: Japan
Registered: 2004-02-27
Posts: 1,653
Website

Re: W3C lost

Destry wrote #318314:

I think you should change subject title to W3C Lost, Google Won, as much as that’s hard to read.

:-)

So now that Googlr has dominant market share with Chrome,[…]

Even more worrisome is that it’s unclear how much of Manifest v3 will be adopted in Firefox. (There’s a thread on this in FF forums somewhere.)

Yeah, that does worry me a bit, as I occasionally use Firefox. Otoh, 2 contacts at Mozilla tell me they as an organisation are quite opposed to many of the changes in Manifest v3 (including this “thing” about ad-blocking and content-filtering). Toca madera as the Spanish say.

I’m not unhappy that Safari doesn’t use that Google mechanism for its extension!

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#10 2019-06-01 14:17:52

colak
Admin
From: Cyprus
Registered: 2004-11-20
Posts: 7,246
Website

Re: W3C lost

I had long discussions with Stallman regarding this issue. He had no idea about it but his first reaction was that of relief, as he disagreed with W3C’s decision to include DRM in its standards. Having shown him the articles I collated about WHATWG, he agreed that the situation will now get worse and that it will create more battles and work for FSF.


Yiannis
——————————
neme.org | hblack.net | LABS | State Machines | Respbublika! | NeMe @ github

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