Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

Destry · 2012-07-15 20:29:53

If you have read the Editor’s letter from Issue 2, you may recall me dropping the idea of a possible themes competition timed around the release of Textpattern v4.5. This would have been a great way to kick-introduce the exciting admin-side code changes Phil and Stef have been working hard to implement. While the competitions will be an exciting thing to do, they’re not going to happen on the timeline as hoped. I figured I’d make that clear here and now for any early starters that might be out there. We’ll get there, and it will be silly fun with lots of surprises, but we have to push it back under the circumstances.

With that out, I’d like to come back to one of the first issues that need to be figured out before proper competitions can be planned and promoted — a platform for hosting them. As mentioned in that article, Textgarden (better, themes garden), is the logical place. But I’ve been noticing something lately; people are using Github to make there Txp themes available, bypassing the garden altogether. Let’s keep track of them, because maybe there are (or will be) more.

I’m not surprised by this, and even think it’s a smart direction for sourcing themes. Everyone uses Github, but the garden is under lock and key. Github is popular with high traffic. The garden is not. Github provides functions to easily update, share, and fork code. The garden does not. Thus, Github may in fact be a better way to orchestrate Txp theme distribution. On the other hand, this should raise a flag: if this trend continues, the garden will be obsolete in no time, and perhaps to the point of no return. That’s not a positive step forward for Textpattern if one of the project sites is as useful as a goiter.

I started thinking about what Stef is eventually going to do with the Plugins repo (textpattern.net), where it will basically serve as a central hub for plugins while still allowing plugin devs to source code where they want. Themes should work the same way, and now would be a good time to put some thought into it. Github has an API (so the non-programmer says). Wouldn’t it be possible to merge the dynamism of Github with the garden so themes hosted on Github could be indexed back to—and easily found from—the garden?

Other ideas for competitions platform and improved themes indexing? The need for such will only become more important.

CeBe · 2012-07-15 21:05:37

Here is an example: how to use the Github API with PHP

Gocom · 2012-07-15 21:48:58

GitHub isn’t replacement, it’s purpose is entirely different.

I wouldn’t say people are skipping Textgarden, but just using source control, which is a great thing. Textpattern platform has way too little professional developers and industry people. Use of Git is hell of a good sign. Actually fucking people you can work with in a team. That so fucking awesome!

Anyways, the point and uses between Textgarden and GitHub is very much different. Textgarden is a release platform, something to host your final themes and get non-dev feedback and provide users a easy way to get and see your themes. The official release channel. While GitHub offers place to host a clone of git repository, that distributed source control system, manage development. They offer some social features as a ticket system, a mail list and a simple wiki. The whole thing is just for providing your source and development a place to live. A source. Targeted to developers and other users of git.

Technically speaking it’s possible to provide “syncing” with GitHub with its API or using git itself. But then, what you would be syncing even…? The repository hosts source. Textgarden can do nothing with it. There isn’t much to sync for or index.

Maybe just the downloads uploaded to GitHub? But how do you get the correct latest download of the theme, not some other file or old revision? Or do you just list all the downloads on Textgarden? Maybe not, because that’s not user-friendly.

Is there any other information you could sync other than downloads? Latest issue reports? — nah, a simple link serves better. Readme? Nah – that’s the development version and contains information which might not be true for the release. A latest tags readme? But which of the tags is the correct one? Can’t know that either.

But sure, you could build a integration with GitHub that sync downloads and maybe a readme from the latest tag. With tags too you have the problem that you can’t reliably know which is the tag you should be looking for without limiting git — which is something you do not want to do. You can’t use the commit order for tags, but sorting tags doesn’t necessarily work either. People tend to use different version schemes.

If it takes to update Textgarden to tell which is the tag it should look for, then it’s pointless. In that case an user can as well update the description and add files on their own to the theme hosting platform, Textgarden.

Tldr; Git, GitHub and Textgarden are different beasts, for different purposes. If someone decides not to add their theme to Textgarden, it’s not because of git. They just ended up releasing themes through other ways, or didn’t find Textgarden profitable.

Destry · 2012-07-16 01:17:10

Gocom,

I think at least half of what you said is the same thing I said, but I’m not sure were focused on the same point.

If someone decides not to add their theme to Textgarden, it’s not because of git. They just ended up releasing themes through other ways, or didn’t find Textgarden profitable.

Right. I’m not saying different. And I’m all for using Github to source themes. I absolutely agree that people wouldn’t “find Textgarden profitable”. Nobody seems to be thinking about Textgarden one way or the other (except me, apparently), and that’s my point.

Txg just sits there, unchanging. To add anything to it requires…well, I don’t know, actually. What does it require? Contacting Stuart? Who’s going to bother doing that when something like Github is autonomous and better… doesn’t require middleman intervention. There’s no indication in Txg (that I can find) what a theme designer is supposed to do if they did want to add themes there, so that’s a problem right from the start.

I’m going to design a theme very soon myself. How do I get it added to Textgarden? And can I autonomously update the file when it needs to be?

There must be a better way to use Textgarden for themes; a better workflow. I don’t believe that file duplication under management of one person is the best way. That will always just lead to outdated files (to say nothing of site content) and people getting confused. Better to have a single source file and then all such theme files indexed somehow. How it’s done, I don’t really care, but the concept is what’s important here.

Heck, as far as i’m concerned, the new wiki page for themes on Github will be a better solution than Textgarden is now, and a lot more straightforward. Anyone can add their theme to Github, and then anyone else with a wiki account can add a link to the wiki page that points to the source Github file. At least that way there’s more people involved with indexing. Textgarden needs some serious re-invention if it’s going to be better than that. And it could be better than that if it becomes a competitions platform and an index to Github files. Imagine how much simpler of a website it would be too. (Last blog post was 19 months ago; i.e., scrap the blog, and any other useless or redundant info to .com.)

I spoke of Github because it seems like the people’s choice these days, but whether Github and TxG can integrate is just a discussion piece towards finding a solution, whatever it may be. Right now Textgarden seems ill-fit for the future, and that’s unfortunate.

Stuart?

Gocom · 2012-07-16 04:15:51

It’s not just Textgarden, but there is just nothing happening. No themes, no plugins. There really nothing to share. Everything is dead in general. Nobody even knows about Textpattern 4.5.0 or what they should be excited about. Calm is good for sure, but this has that dead vibe in it. I’m personally bit worried that nobody notices TXP 4.5.

Destry wrote:

Anyone can add their theme to Github

You don’t just add a theme to GitHub. You foremost should have a reason to use the service, other than as a file dumb. GitHub is a great thing sure, but it’s just for git mainly. Users of that thing. If you don’t use source control systems (i.e. revision your changes), then you have very little to use GitHub.

GitHub doesn’t really increase your traffic. It’s like saying Google increases your traffic. It has community capabilities, but in the sense of developers and developing. Using GitHub to host your theme is like hosting it anywhere other from developer perspective.

And it could be better than that if it becomes a competitions platform and an index to Github files

With that whole GitHub thing, what you are just after is customizable download URL, or turning Textgarden to a site that just features themes? Basically just indexes and links to content hosted elsewhere? That can work, but then you are relaying on content that is hosted elsewhere. Who is going to provide demos and all that?

I mean it’s not bad idea. Would need staff that finds content then tho.

What Textgarden should need in its current format is just a way to publish themes. Account system could be good, and letting theme authors to edit their theme pages and submit new themes. Maybe even themes that cost money, where then Textgarden would handle transactions. Already a point that makes Textgarden way more better than anything else.

Handling demos will be a ongoing issue since Textpattarn doesn’t have standard theme system other than for admin-side themes. Such demo system can be automated, and hosted by Textgarden, but needs a standardized theme format everyone uses.

And to be honest, in my opinion both Textpattern.org and Textgarden should be moderated if possible. Every bit of code should be checked and validated for security and compatibility issues and more. Yes, I’m serious about it. And yes, it would be a lot of work. And yes, it would, for some, make Textpattern a hypocrite as open source is concerned.

But man, security is serious business. Our community is just so freaking small that no one actually even notices any issues. :/

philwareham · 2012-07-16 09:17:56

Sounding a bit negative there Jukka.

Firstly, there are new themes being created – like this one.

I also disagree with nobody knowing about v4.5 – I know lots of people looking forward to it, including some pretty big names in web design such as Tim Van Damme and Jon Hicks – both of whom I spoke with about 4.5 just a few days ago. If we can get a few tweets from them or even a article on their blog, then that’ll help spread the word and generate new users. After all, I only discovered Textpattern myself after it was recommended by Jon in his blog.

Anyway, I see v4.6 as the critical release for Textpattern’s future, not v4.5. By the time that comes around we will have:

A new Textpattern.com website and hopefully a new Textpattern.org site using the same design – I took a break from core work over the weekend and started putting the foundation pieces for the .com site together. The responsive grid is pretty much done now so I’m onto the design itself soon.
YouTube video channel
Better communication channels from us to the world.
Further modernised admin side.
Built in custom field stuff.
Hopefully majority of current plugins updated for 4.5 structure (which won’t change too much in 4.6)
Some uplift from the 4.5 release
Plenty of other new features in the CMS that are planned

Things were probably dead a few months back after such a long hiatus between 4.4.1 and 4.5 and a lack of news, but I actually see Textpattern talked about a lot more in the twitter streams for example over the last couple of months and some real impetus coming back.

Last edited by philwareham (2012-07-16 09:20:34)

Gocom · 2012-07-16 12:19:01

philwareham wrote:

Sounding a bit negative there Jukka.

Nah. Don’t worry I’m not trying to be negative. More of so subjective? Maybe? The thing is, Textpattern is just small and there has never been too much interest in the platform. Sure, there is more interest in Textpattern scale now than few months ago. But. It’s still quite little.

Anyway, I see v4.6 as the critical release for Textpattern’s future, not v4.5

Small advice of mine; don’t look too far in the future. People feel obligated and may ruin it for you. I bet that unfortunately there is going to be a some whining about new Textpattern that doesn’t concentrate on content and I’m moving to WordPress comments. How things should stay the same for eternity. Oh god.

Hopefully majority of current plugins updated for 4.5 structure (which won’t change too much in 4.6)

I do hope so, but. You know about my opinion is… :/ But hopefully Textpattern can keep up the good track and attract new developers that do new things

#negativity #itsrainingoutside #cloudy #mytoiletisbroken

Last edited by Gocom (2012-07-16 12:23:07)

Destry · 2012-07-19 12:55:34

I just wrote the new doc page for Creating Textpattern themes. Consider it a draft. It’s more just orientation at the moment but better than what’s existed before to help those who don’t know where to start looking.

Feel free to add and correct details, because it’s written by someone who’s not yet created a theme for sharing. I’m watching the page and will help clean up the copy, but please do make the content factual.

Thanks!

Destry · 2012-07-19 13:28:23

While working on the draft doc, I noticed two different kinds of download links in Textgarden: those that download themes directly from Textgarden, and links that take you to ProText Themes where you can then get themes at cost. I don’t know if ProText Themes is getting a kick-pack for every theme they sell from that site (it would be silly to keep up a portal like that if not), and if that’s the case, then ProText Themes is clearly using traffic from Textgarden for business gain (as evident by the rerouting to their site).

I have no problems with Txg linking out to themes hosted elsewhere; that’s been part of my argument all along to help make Txg relevant, index Txp themes wherever they are. And I don’t care that ProText Themes might be making money off of Textpattern themes. Somebody should be.

But I do think it’s an exploitation of Txg traffic that the Textpattern project itself should be exploiting. The Textpattern project is missing a beat here; it should be capitalizing on using Txg for making some scratch for the project, not some other website.

So, in addition to the important things I’ve mentioned before—using Txg for indexing distributed themes around the web, serving as a platform for promoting/hosting theme competitions, providing clear and complete documentation for creating themes—the project could also be working with theme designers that want to sell their themes too, taking a small fee for hosting the design at a high-traffic site. So in addition to free themes hosted in Txg itself, you’d also have at-cost themes under an agreement with designers (writing up the agreement/terms would be the easy part), plus themes indexed from code source locations (e.g., Github, Google code…) and people’s own websites (if that’s what they preferred).

All of these business functions together in one site (Txg) is much more valuable and cross-promotional than if happening outside of the project, and thus more of a traffic generator for themes and the project as a whole.

And consider all the audiences this serves:

Theme designers benefit from having a popular theme outlet to hock from.
Textpattern core benefits by earning some project money (by providing the platform and traffic).
The community benefits by being able to access all the great themes (both free and at-cost) in one place, where they expect to be able to find them, regardless of where they are actually sourced.
Potential/new theme designers get more interested in theme development through regular competitions (with prizes, etc.) and availability of theme documentation.

And you could have different theme support models depending on theme value. E.g., for themes at-cost, designers must provide ongoing theme support (ensuring theme quality and relevance to latest releases) if they want to use Txg for distribution. A similar incentive to keep free themes relevant in Txg might be to add a “Donate” feature, where designers are obliged to update there themes so long as their themes are seeing interest via donation. Any other free themes that don’t stay relevant due to no designer support or community interest are phased out after some means of measure (downloads? versions old? community rated?) or something. I don’t know. The point is there could be some kind of way to help keep themes good over time, which is important because they are essentially content and content needs to stay fresh to be interesting.

It’s a winning model. Why let a valuable resource like Txg become an obsolete conduit for some other website’s gain?

Time for some new Textgarden specs, I think. I’m sure we can get people to work on it.

wet · 2012-07-19 13:38:33

Protext is Stuart, afaik.

philwareham · 2012-07-19 13:50:44

As you know, I’m working on designs/structure for the next Textpattern.com site and its siblings. I see no reason why Textgarden would be excluded from that work if it actually is an official part of the Textpattern family.

But, I always thought Textgarden was a third party anyway?

colak · 2012-07-19 13:57:25

I’m somehow skeptical regarding changing much in textgarden.

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#1 2012-07-15 20:29:53

Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#2 2012-07-15 21:05:37

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#3 2012-07-15 21:48:58

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#4 2012-07-16 01:17:10

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#5 2012-07-16 04:15:51

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#6 2012-07-16 09:17:56

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#7 2012-07-16 12:19:01

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#8 2012-07-19 12:55:34

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#9 2012-07-19 13:28:23

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#10 2012-07-19 13:38:33

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#11 2012-07-19 13:50:44

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

#12 2012-07-19 13:57:25

Re: Themes, competitions, and Textgarden

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