[mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

raveoli · 2008-11-03 11:02:54

Gocom wrote:

And i take your redesign as a “mockup” change ;) And note my other “everyone won’t even like the change” which I mean the look. Some of us do like Textpattern’s backend design. I don’t, but i think UI should always be minimalistic – beautiful but minimalistic. Calm colors, not hard to use and not anything that screams “I’m a Textpattern backend! I’M A TEXTPATTERN BACKEND! Do you notice my logos! DO YOU! I got a miljon colors and some curly graphics that won’t fit your site design, but look nice in backend screens” ;D

Who said anything about screaming colors. The discipline of design involves function as well as form. And usability. Easy, in core image upload for example. More ajax for less reloads. Better ability for the webdesigner/webdeveloper to customize the clients experience. Pare down the interface. I’m not talking about eyecandy.

Last edited by raveoli (2008-11-03 11:04:00)

raveoli · 2008-11-03 11:06:01

wet wrote:

Textpattern 4.0.7 will send a few dedicated events where plugins can hook in any style sheet or script to override large parts of the default visual appearance (not markup). This could be exploited for agency- or customer-specific branding as well as for “skinning” Textpattern.

That is great! But I didn’t know that, and it has not been communicated clearly. And, if things are to be as always, the Textpattern.com homepage will not have a screencast that explains it to the world, once 4.0.7 is out.

raveoli · 2008-11-03 11:10:20

Anyway, as you started out stating, those affairs and opinions have already been discussed to death in this forum. Which is why I will now go back to my blog and discuss eventual comments there, since I actually wanted to discuss the momentum aspect of the project vs. what happens in other similar endeavours like WordPress and Drupal.

As in “no nitpicking about Textpattern this and that” but more a general observation on leadership, momentum and what it takes to gain momentum. Tribes, the new book by Seth Godin subconsciously fueled my blog post I think…

Off I go;-)

nemoorange · 2008-11-03 15:09:00

Oliver,

First off, thank you for posting your comparison. I welcome critiques like yours as they are catalysts for the community. I have to agree with you on most your points about the design of Textpattern, both the homepage and the back-end admin. The Textpattern community and the Textpattern product both need a refresh badly.

Regarding textpattern.com — The redesign process has been slow and laboring. (Up until Wet’s recent mention in this thread of its status, I had assumed that it had been abandoned, so I’m pumped to see it back on track). Going back and forth between forum posts was difficult. I kinda wish that we had some leadership position where one person just made the executive decision, implemented the new design, without a lot of community involvement. Such a revision would have been swift and easy. If this route were taken, We would have had a new homepage in place for months. But community integration is what Textpattern is all about. It has allowed me, a fledgling student designer, to become involved in a product that is used around the world. Something should be said for that. Maybe Textpattern isn’t as sexy as Wordpress in the blogging world at large, but how integrated is the Wordpress community in its development?

As for the back-end — Like Wet mentioned, 4.0.7 will have some new back-end features geared towards “mingling.” I’m excited to see what’s to come. Until the next release comes, I already have a plugin to-be-released-shortly that enables users to easily switch the administration stylesheet. I’ve been working on several different styles, with the goal of finding a definitive solution to the current tab-clutter design currently in place.

I agree with you 100% on marketing the new release. The tag parser and tags-in-tags are cool features, but typical users will only really notice new chrome. If 4.0.7 came with a new back-end, I’m sure a lot of more people would take notice. Two polls indicated that the Textpattern marketshare is fairly slim. I would love to grab more users on board, and perhaps the best way to do that would be a back-end refresh.

About Wordpress — I installed it for the first time last week. I can see it being a delight for non-techie users. But as a designer, it’s not for me. You already hit upon the pain-points – raw PHP. In terms of Wordpress’s latest design revision, they employed Happy Cog who are one of the top web design firms out there. I’m sure if Textpattern had the same resources, the resulting back-end would be just as compelling. But again, that would go against what Txp is about.

I’m curious, what “aha” moments did you experience with Wordpress?

mrdale · 2008-11-03 16:09:42

Thanks for your the post, raveoli.

Whenever we get a passionate critique of TXP it kinda means that indeed there is life.

I have felt similar frustrations, which seem to boil over whenever I don’t have enough to do. Usually Jan-March (viva la xPattern!) but then I get so busy building sites with TXP that I just have to put up with the shortcomings that devs, for whatever reason, are unwilling to address.

To be fair they’re usually BIG BIG things, like flexible content types.

But I have noticed a renewed vigor lately with Devs and txp. The new tag parser is super nice. Also… guys like netcarver, bloke, jmd, etc.. and the one’s I can twist the arms of on private projects (hakjoon, igner) keep developing on TXP a fun and productive venture.

So fear not for TXP, and I hear you. Keep on truckin…

Last edited by mrdale (2008-11-03 16:11:38)

gerhard01 · 2009-05-18 20:21:35

Somehow innocent txp got into this rant about How to screw an open source project …

jstubbs · 2009-05-19 08:28:14

I don’t agree with Bert in that thread. Later he mentions Sam from welovetxp – he forgot TXP Tips which I run as a community project and I care a lot about it and TXP itself.

Even if Wet is the only dev currently working, his code contributions have been incredible over the last two releases and in the upcoming 4.09. We should congratulate him for this work.

saccade · 2009-05-19 15:31:04

jstubbs is right: Congratulations to Wet for all his fine work! And many thanks for all the care and devotion he puts into clean and useful code!

I don’t care the mere number of developers (while I think he shouldn’t be forced to carry the burdon alone forever – but all in good time) – but I care the quality of the results. And there it is just fine.
I think nobody can know if we would be on a better side with a different development model. I also don’t see an example where it is better with a different model.

Maybe it sounds old fashioned what I think, but IMHO the old model of craftsmen, of masters and journeymen/fellows, of developing skills out of experience – all this produced the most simple and usable tools (as well as techniques or artifacts) in all history.

Even if it is sometimes hard to wait or to patiently bear times of slow progress, or having to adapt to someone other’s handwriting, I think this solution is more able to take a weight in the end.

(btw I’m not romantic about “in the old times” but I had a close look on Richard Sennetts The Craftsman – a highly recommendable book – and on different forms of teamworking in communities and a university of applied sciences. I can’t complain about txp’s model if compared to any other model I know.)

Last edited by saccade (2009-05-19 15:48:22)

colak · 2009-05-19 17:23:29

gerhard01 wrote:

Somehow innocent txp got into this rant about How to screw an open source project …

Bert is very much involved with xpattern now which indeed looks very promising. Unfortunately – judging from his various posts – he seems to believe that textpattern should follow certain paths or face extinction.

I believe that forking open source projects is great but we don’t have to have a competition about which one will survive. More importantly we do not need to launch wars which is what Bert seems to be doing lately (possibly) to promote xpt. If txp is dying why do we have posts like this here? A dying cms also has a dying community which is the last place I would post my news.

TXP is a lightweight cms. It doesn’t need a lot of developers what it needs is a lot of users and a lot of people to care about it which it thankfully has.

hcgtv · 2009-05-20 03:40:02

colak wrote:

More importantly we do not need to launch wars which is what Bert seems to be doing lately (possibly) to promote xpt.

Colak, you are correct, let me see where the download link to xPattern 1.0 is, wait, I just had it, shoot, I’ll have to get back to you on that ;)

Let me see if I can explain myself one last time for those that care to listen: There are two ways to make money from Textpattern, use it as a tool, make it the best tool.

At present, Textpattern is a great tool for web developers. Heck, it’s like if you FTPed up static HTML, it’s that light and runs just as freaking fast. The web developers in the audience know what a great tool they have, go Wet they exclaim, unlimited custom fields, whoopee!

My aim has always been to gain a wider audience by making Textpattern the best tool. This opens up more possibilities to those of us that don’t live in Dreamweaver, Textmate or whatever you may use to make your beautiful designs. We, the less gifted, can make monies from commissioned plugins, packaged templates, detailed how-tos, hand holding installations and the list goes on and on, look towards Joomla! as a guide.

After 3 years 5 months 20 days, thanks Wolfram, I don’t believe I can change the direction of Textpattern. This project is comfortable being a tool for web developers, so be it. But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

wet · 2009-05-20 05:11:26

hcgtv wrote:

But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

Bert, are you interested in working on our forum site as a coder, one way or the other?

els · 2009-05-20 19:33:28

Bert, I think it’s a pity you made your post on that other forum such a slashing criticism, you’re explaining yourself in a much less unfriendly way over here.

After 3 years 5 months 20 days, thanks Wolfram, I don’t believe I can change the direction of Textpattern. This project is comfortable being a tool for web developers, so be it. But I can dream, I can hope, and I can code.

I understand that different people have different opinions and dreams about how their favourite CMS should evolve. But I don’t understand it when people won’t accept that their dream is just one of many, and though it is possible that it will become reality, it’s just as likely that it won’t. And if it will, it will not likely happen overnight.
If I wouldn’t like – and couldn’t influence – the way Txp evolves, I’d be off and find something else. If I could code – like you – I’d even have more options. I’d be sad of course, but I don’t think I would feel the need to convince others to stay away from it.

My aim has always been to gain a wider audience by making Textpattern the best tool.

And now that you’re convinced that making it the best tool will not work out, your aim is to keep the audience as small as possible by making posts like yours in other places? It doesn’t matter very much if you do that over here, because most of us can form our own opinions, but posts like that will certainly discourage others who are less informed. And I don’t think you have a good reason to do that.

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#13 2008-11-03 11:02:54

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#14 2008-11-03 11:06:01

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#15 2008-11-03 11:10:20

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#16 2008-11-03 15:09:00

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#17 2008-11-03 16:09:42

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#18 2009-05-18 20:21:35

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#19 2009-05-19 08:28:14

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#20 2009-05-19 15:31:04

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#21 2009-05-19 17:23:29

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#22 2009-05-20 03:40:02

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#23 2009-05-20 05:11:26

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

#24 2009-05-20 19:33:28

Re: [mention] Textpattern vs WordPress - a Lack of Momentum

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