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Textpattern Core
I feel the whole community would benefit if the different points of view about the Textpattern Core Code were presented in a simple and unbiased manner. So I invite those who know what they are talking about to send me their short answers to my questions below. I will then publish them on TXPQ. There will NOT be a discussion before publishing – the aim is to present concise summary answers so that the average user like myself can have a better understanding of the technical issues which have led to the fork in the road of TXP development.
Respondents should send their answers to peter at txpq dot com before 6pm GMT on Tuesday 19 February. I will not disclose any answers to anyone else and the first time you get to see anyone else’s answers will be around 8pm that night when I publish the article.
Please just state the facts as you see them. I will cut out anything I consider to be unfair or inflammatory. Please note well that this is for people who know the Textpattern core code well enough to give fully informed and helpful answers and because of article length I’d prefer no more than 3 or 4 TXP and 3 or 4 XPT respondents. Thank you very much for your help and co-operation. Here are the questions.
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With the benefit of hindsight, would you rewrite the Textpattern core code differently? (1 or 2 word answer)
Roughly speaking, what percentage of the 4.0.6 core is good and what percentage is bad? (1 or 2 word answer)
Why is the good part good? (no more than 2 sentences)
Why is the bad part bad? (no more than 2 sentences)
Which major parts would you rewrite differently? (no more than 1 sentence)
Which minor parts would you rewrite differently? (no more than 1 sentence)
What is the best way to improve Textpattern? (no more than 2 sentences)
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Such length limitations may be frustrating but please stick to them and leave extra detail and grey area discussions for later. If you absolutely MUST go into detail use a link.
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Re: Textpattern Core
I could point out several parts of TXP that could’ve been written better… but most if not all of them have absolutely nothing to do with the fork. Do you want people to focus just on the technical issues that may or may not have helped cause the fork?
And there’s no way I can write them down in 2 sentences, unless you don’t mind very long sentences ;)
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Re: Textpattern Core
I was thinking to list all parts of TXP that you would have written better, not necessarily just related to the fork. Not to list every detail but if possible to lump certain things together, so that an overall view comes across.
Your way of looking at things will be different from someone else’s but may be the same as another person’s. By summarising the parts that could be improved and the parts you feel are great, I thought it may bring out a consensus or similarities or differences of approach that might tell us all something.
Am I making sense? Is it possible to summarise like that?
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Re: Textpattern Core
Peter>
To be completely honest, I feel like you are trying to drive more traffic to your site by asking leading and divisive questions. And I’m simply not interested in continuing the drama.
I happily continue to contribute to both forums and hold the core devs in great esteem for excellent work done (while respectfully disagreeing with parts of their approach).
I wish that you would stop trying to suck as much drama out of the fork as you can and just let it take it’s course, which is really just about one group playing with code to see what they can come up with.
Let it die, please.
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Re: Textpattern Core
zero wrote: Where’s the drama? In your head.
You’re right, I’m a drama queen, look, here I am…
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#7 2008-02-13 03:08:59
- marios
- Archived Plugin Author
- Registered: 2005-03-12
- Posts: 1,253
Re: Textpattern Core
If it would have been some while ago, I could have been intrigued to join that flame war thingy. I’d avoid to do that cross-textdrive-forum-wise, which is a dangerous and unpleasent thing to do.
So, here is what I think in a couple short words:
(Without yet having the experience)
Core = Chevrolette Corvette Engine (Without the rest)
Backend = Pickup-Truck ( Without Engine )
(Garage needed)
I thought also, that Manfred’s Plugin Work was paramount (We are all using it), so its kinda of unintelligent, to go on War over his Sideproject, which has nothing to do with What’s going on here.
Not very constructive really.
I didn’t want to disappoint you, this is just what I personally think now. What you are trying to attempt, I think doesn’t go anywhere
In Peace and Love, marios
⌃ ⇧ < ⎋ ⌃ ⇧ >
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Re: Textpattern Core
2 sentences:)
As textpattern is an Open Source project, it allows not only hacking of the code but also variations and deviations from it. As much as I would like this community to stick together for the further development of one project, it is part of the open source ethic not only to allow but also to encourage the creation of derivative works.
Last edited by colak (2008-02-13 07:23:14)
Yiannis
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I do my best editing after I click on the submit button.
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Re: Textpattern Core
This is either about the fork or it’s not about the fork. Since that’s not clear, there’s no point in answering the question.
Don’t get me wrong. There’s no conflict at all between the TXP and xPattern developers. It’s just that in this case, the purpose of the article you’re trying to write is not clear.
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Re: Textpattern Core
Devs: My purpose is to discover the different points of view about the Textpattern Core Code presented in a simple and unbiased manner by the coders who make the core, ie txp or xpt developers. You are the ones who know the core intimately and can see how it can be improved. Because of my lack of knowledge, I had assumed the fork was at least in part due to different views about the core and ways to improve it. Perhaps I got this wrong and the fork was entirely down to non-code issues?
If all the devs are saying they are in agreement about the txp core code and that they all work the same way with it, then there is nothing more to discover. But if there are different points of view about the code (and I mean technical not personal or workload related) then I thought it would be very interesting to know what these are. We could go beyond personal issues and learn about what it is in the core that devs are enthusiastic about and which they feel can be improved.
Non-Devs: I am trying to do the opposite to a flame-war. How can asking for a simple unbiased summary of some technical good and bad things be construed as trying to divide people, start a flame war etc? I really don’t understand where people are coming from who say I am dramatic. If you read what I say, I really don’t think you will find any drama or inflammatory remarks at all.
There are obviously some high emotions still flying around and I believe these are stopping people seeing things as they are. By asking for presentation of some technical facts in an unbiased manner, I thought this would help everyone look coolly and objectively instead of with confused and mixed feelings. xPats have declared their desire for open communication. Here’s a chance to do that.
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Re: Textpattern Core
zero wrote> I really don’t understand where people are coming from who say I am dramatic. If you read what I say, I really don’t think you will find any drama or inflammatory remarks at all.
Let me help you understand
Your questions are subjective, simplistic and divisive by nature; ie, “what percentage of the core is good/bad”. If xpats, TXPers and devs weren’t smarter they’d probably jump right in and give you all the makings of a crackerjack “he-said, she-said” flame bait article for your site.
This is good for SEO but bad for building software, and is probably why no-one is taking this survey seriously.
I think the best articles on your site are ones that bring people together. ie, community member profiles. That is brilliant, and positive.
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Re: Textpattern Core
mrdale wrote:
Your questions are subjective, simplistic and divisive by nature;
No matter how he would phrase the questions, the answers would always be subjective. It’s no secret, he’s asking for “facts as you see them”. Few people here are able to give an objective answer to questions about TXP core code. Most of those who are familiar enough with the code, either took part in writing it and/or wrote plugins to add desired functionality and/or are part of the fork.
I think the questions are written from a non-coder perspective (correct me if I’m wrong Peter).
Take the first question for example. I can’t imagine any coder who wouldn’t want to re-write some code that is part of a project that evolved for several years.
The second question is near impossible to answer, if only for the fact that you’d have to decide on how to count the code that should be changed. Is that per line, do you count lines that only have an opening bracket? Does code complexity have an influence on the percentage?
Asking why the good/bad part is good/bad, leaves out the question ‘which’ parts are good/bad. Without knowing that, the ‘why’ is not very meaningful.
And I have a hard time deciding what parts are minor or major. Some things sound minor but require major changes.
As for the divisive nature… mostly that depends on how we respond to the questions and how we interpret the results.
Peter, I think your TXP Fork article is the reason for some of the reactions here in this topic. Had that article not existed, I think the responses here would have been different. I won’t respond, because I think the reasons for the fork are mainly non-technical and I’d prefer not to see this turn into “TXP Fork part 2” (not the article itself, but how it is perceived).
I think the idea behind your questions is good and well-intended. It should be possible to ask such questions, so the community understands why devs sometimes focus on other things than what the community sees as major issues (and the devs stay in touch with what the community needs). However, at this point in time, with a fork that just happened and an article that was not well received by the xPat people, I think the effect will be negative rather than positive.
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