Cosmetic Surgery

aarplane · 2006-10-03 23:18:42

Mary, I like your latest invention. Although, I think the area above the tabs should be smaller. And the go box could be placed right-aligned beside the tabs (under the site name).

Destry · 2006-10-04 06:27:40

Boy, we’ve seen this debate go full circle at least what, 50 times in the last 2 years?

Here’s what’s clear:

Devs and community alike are interested in improving the backend.
Everyone more or less likes the simplicity that currently exists, but usability improvements are needed.
More important than the gloss is the underlying code that will make it easier to custom gloss.

I think the latest round of debating (and emotions) is not because each side (devs vs. community) has different agendas, it’s because the workflow on this particular aspect of development is too invisible. Ravioli makes good points about a proper methodology. Mary counters with the implication that such a methodology has been taking place, and I have no reason to disbelieve her. The problem, as I see it, is nobody knows what that methodology is and we’re always just referred to Trac (meaningless to most folks), which makes it seem very closed doors. I can feel for zem when he says opinions are meaningless without some follow-up effort; they certainly are. On the otherhand, Rav is right when he says there’s no point in making an effort if there’s no awareness of where such contribution is going, or how it might fit in. If, as zem points out, everyone is welcome to work on this project with equality and equanimity, then there should be an open platform outside of this silly thread where it’s shown that’s true, where everyone can see progress made in this area and what that progress is.

There should be:

an open, visible plan of action,
a method to fulfilling the plan,
a channel for constant communication, and
a platform to monitor it all.

If we had that, none of this bickering would be taking place. Numbers 3 and 4 are easy, we have that, just needs officially pointed out (and no, it should not be Trac alone). What is critically missing is numbers 1 and 2. Granted they are the hardest part, but they are also the key to all of this. The first should be a short document that clearly details what the end objectives for the backend redesign are, both under the hood, usability changes, and default presentation. This will provide a focal point for everyone to work from, and naturally it will come from some open dialog and volunteer writers (in the wiki is a good place). The second is another document, that details the what will happen in what order and when. Simple. Again, this will come from open dialog and writers to put it to text. You’ll be amazed what results come from those to guiding documents. Screenshots, idea flows, you name it. A little guidance goes a hell of along way to organized fun.

If we move forward with the planning (phases 1 and 2) according to the initial three points I noted at top in mind, and we open this puppy up in a more structured way (as suggested), I think a happy median will be achieved, as well as a facilitated effort to real, unanimously-accepted results.

rloaderro · 2006-10-04 16:16:10

Destry wrote:

Where are the mod points? Someone needs to mod this up!

Skubidu · 2006-10-04 20:16:33

Destry, thanks for your great posting!

I think we don’t need discussions about concrete designs at this point:

We need a concept for a new structure of the pages on the admin interface (improved usability).
We need the HTML to transform this new structure into the fundament of the refreshed design.

If these two point are well prepared, the look and feel is nothing more than good CSS and maybe some JavaScript.

I’m sure this process has to be moderated by someone. We need an open discussion between users, contributors and devs (every group has to participate at this point). It does not make sense to create one draft after the other without having talked about what the general conditions are. Right now, we have many ideas and many screenshots, but we still don’t have a concept. At least there is no official concept I know of.

I would welcome one of the devs (for example Mary) opening and guiding this goal-oriented discussion about the two points mentioned above. This way we – the normal users and contributors – could see how things are moving on. And the devs could see why certain things are discussed controversially.

Destry · 2006-10-04 21:41:00

Most likely my words of wisdump are a whole lot too late, yet if this was fall 2005, I would suggest the following very simple strategy for getting started with items 1 and 2 in my previous post:

Create a project launch point in the Community Projects index of the wiki; for example, Textpattern Admin Side Redevelopment (TASR). Et voila!
In the TASR page, create three sections:
1. Overview (briefly describes the effort and indicates who main contacts are)
2. Working Documents (a simple bulleted list of developing documents)
3. Resources (another bulleted list of whatever the community wanted to throw into the brainpool)
In the Working Documents section, start with two bullets for the following documents:
1. Project Specifications (criteria for code, usability, accessibility, … et cetera)
2. Project Methodology (chronological details about what happens when and by whom, flexible of course)
Community begins fleshing out the first document, Project Specifications. Someone perhaps steps up as a page editor to keep copy neat, but anyone can make comments either here or in the associated discussion page of the Project Specifications.
When the first document begins to take shape, the second document, Project Methodology, can begin to be drafted in similar fashion.
When the Project Specifications document is fairly locked down (or whenever) people with itchy palms can start their fancy mockups, upload them in the wiki, and add them to the Resources section (2.3 above) of the TASR page.

The wiki, as much as people seem to hate it (I’ll never understand why), is the perfect platform for this, and therefore addressing points 3 and 4 of my previous post. Shouldn’t be hard to see that things will quickly fall into place at that point. Of course a guiding voice from TeamTextpattern’s side of things would be necessary since ultimately things must be passed that way, but there you go.

As indicated, this isn’t fall 2005.

hazel · 2006-10-05 21:02:31

Just to second what Destry has eloquently stated.

Whether this work makes it into the next release is not so important. Some guiding documents for the future… would be good for everybody.

Just a summary of the discussion in this (and the ‘Facelift..’ threads) would be a good start. I will work on putting this up on the the TASR pages, along with links to the Flickr groups (may as well use their bandwidth :)

Hoping for some lead from the devs. And anyone interested could chime in, then we could get a contributors page going/announce it

Mary · 2006-10-06 01:31:15

Nils, Destry and hazel:

That’s just the thing: I have been and consistantly looking for input for over a year now. I’ve gotten back:

“Yeah, I like that.”
“No, I don’t like that.”
“Your work is crap. I won’t work with you.”
“Dean would do it better. Oh savior Dean, save us from this monster!”
“Someone should be doing something. In fact, here’s what I would do…”
Off-shoot efforts to chase after to find out what the hell is going on.
Suggestions for and new initiations of over-complicated systems of committees and paper-work. We all know how well that has worked for the wiki so far, which has a far more straight-forward thrust. We don’t need more unused wiki pages – that’s not a slight to you Destry, you know better than anyone else what the state of things are.

I’d much prefer more of the second item – with detail – and better still: input of new ideas.

I’ve been doing the work of usability and browser testing, in collaboration with those whom were at all interested in being cooperative. I’ve been doing the work of what users like and don’t like by asking, as stupid as you may think that is. I’m also determined not to slap “2.0” on it or copy someone else’s admin ui (if you want that ui – use that program).

I have ~~deleted~~ (that’s not the word I meant) already acheived consensus (of those whom have actually responded) of a few items, such as “What’s the most usable base font size for this user group?” I have found out and am still finding out what people like and want.

There will always be the naysayers, and quite frankly we don’t need more of it and I’m sick of such distaste for mature discussion.

You want to know what you (as an individual) can do to help, specifically? Ask. List what you could contribute/offer and then you can be given a more specific answer. When the question is open – as it has been – give input on the actual topic at hand: what the admin ui should act and feel like.

The so-called “invisible workflow” isn’t invisible, but completely overlooked. Planning is all well and good, but there is also such a thing as over-planning and getting nothing real achieved – something this community has a bad track record for. Our greatest successes have been when we did the necessary planning, but then got our hands dirty. In that respect I am a get-things-done type of person, and getting very frustrated because it doesn’t have to be so rediculously difficult as people are making it.

I’ve been sitting here, working and waiting. Won’t someone please join me in the actual work, instead of railing against me (or just ignoring me) at every opportunity? Once again, I’m asking, can we please move on and get something real accomplished?

Last edited by Mary (2006-10-06 01:33:16)

jm · 2006-10-06 01:49:37

Mary, I’ve got time to contribute to re-coding (removing inline styles, replicating the current table-layout with CSS), or re-organizing any HTML and CSS (and a little JS). Would it be best to start on the crockery or 4.0.4 version?

‘Dean would do it better. Oh savior Dean, save us from this monster!’

:D

Last edited by jm (2006-10-06 01:50:24)

hcgtv · 2006-10-06 01:54:21

Mary wrote:

You want to know what you (as an individual) can do to help, specifically? Ask. List what you could contribute/offer and then you can be given a more specific answer.

I can help test things out, you give me access to the code, I’ll install it and give you some feedback. I have installed, tested and played with, just about every system out there, I know the good and bad of each, there is no one system that does it best.

That’s all I can do, offer my critique.

RussLipton · 2006-10-06 01:55:18

My apologies; haven’t been a do-er due to press of other responsibilities. I very much appreciate all that so many have done to contribute to TxP; not least you Mary! Don’t let people like me get to you ;-).

Mary · 2006-10-06 02:35:50

Thank you guys, I was beginning to think it was a lost cause.

Crockery. We can use crockery, and at some point send patches back and forth to test an evaluate. As we get closer to what would be more final (as “final” as things get in crockery…) I can start making commits (at which point things are able to move even faster). Crockery actually needs some catching up to the dev branch, but it is presently not very far off markup-wise. Hopefully I can squeeze some more time in to work on that.

At present we’re still in a concept stage. I’ve been working soley on changing the “wrapper” of the admin (both the look as well as converting to better markup) thus far, as what that looks like will determine how “the middle bit” needs to change. I would very much like to drop those tables too.

We now have the benefit of jQuery as well, which means there’s a little more the core can be doing, but a LOT more that admin-side plugins can achieve – or at least, achieve with less work. Consider it a secondary priority: we should try and make the admin as accessible as possible without JavaScript, then soup it up (i.e.: make things even smoother but not “flashy”). Part of that will be retroactive work, to make the existing stuff (that is staying) more accessible. For example, getting rid of “display: none” in inline CSS, as we were chatting earlier. I’ve been experimenting with that aspect and it works very well.

Once we have the new design worked out, then the markup, then I’ll very likely need more help making a tableless “legacy” theme for those who don’t want to part with current look.

My biggest lack is how much I can test anything – I don’t have a Mac or Safari, etc. Philippe has been extremely helpful in the past with that respect. There are times I want to tear my hair out because of a certain browser… I can also try my best to use something as if I were a new user, but that’s pretty difficult to do. Fresh eyes are always better at picking out weak areas or an approach being overlooked. So don’t feel you necessarily have to be a do-all, there’s certainly something anyone could be doing.

Jon and Bert: I’ll see whom else is interested (hopefully a few more) and then I’ll contact you via email (your forum email address).

aarplane · 2006-10-06 03:59:57

My biggest lack is how much I can test anything

I’ll be more than glad to help test. I have a Mac and Safari.

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#73 2006-10-03 23:18:42

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#74 2006-10-04 06:27:40

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#75 2006-10-04 16:16:10

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#76 2006-10-04 20:16:33

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#77 2006-10-04 21:41:00

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#78 2006-10-05 21:02:31

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#79 2006-10-06 01:31:15

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#80 2006-10-06 01:49:37

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#81 2006-10-06 01:54:21

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#82 2006-10-06 01:55:18

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#83 2006-10-06 02:35:50

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#84 2006-10-06 03:59:57

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

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