The direction of Textpattern 5

redbot · 2011-01-27 19:48:13

aswihart wrote:

Redbot’s image upload plugin rocks. I can’t even think of a significant alternative interface that is worth considering if one was to be put into the core program.

Thx

Bloke wrote:

Then maybe I should try it. Perhaps I’ll end up eating my words above!

I hope I didn’t set expectations too high. All in all it’s nothing particularly sophisticated but someway it works.

P.S.
sorry for the serial OT posting

Last edited by redbot (2011-01-27 19:50:12)

jsoo · 2011-01-27 22:07:12

Just a reminder, by all means keep the discussion and feature requests coming, but please keep in mind that initial work on Txp5 is simply a port/refactor. The initial release will probably not be much of a feature release, as such.

johnstephens · 2011-01-27 22:12:06

jsoo wrote:

The initial release will probably not be much of a feature release, as such.

+1. I’m happy for very small steps.

thebombsite · 2011-01-27 23:51:58

jsoo wrote:

Just a reminder, by all means keep the discussion and feature requests coming, but please keep in mind that initial work on Txp5 is simply a port/refactor. The initial release will probably not be much of a feature release, as such.

I just want to get my hands on it, so as quick and featureless as you like please. I’m scratching my palms so much they’re starting to bleed!

aswihart · 2011-01-28 00:57:24

redbot wrote:

I hope I didn’t set expectations too high. All in all it’s nothing particularly sophisticated but someway it works.

Maybe not sophisticated, elegant is a better word.

mrdale · 2011-01-28 01:02:20

Just have to jump in here and address the whole “dumbing-down txp” discussion.

I think this presents a false (unnecessary) choice. You can have both.

With all due respect(much respect), maniqui’s example is beside the point… that’s a fight that no-one has to fight. I always install TinyMCE on TXP installs and turn off textile before I ever offer a client choices. I do this simply because it removes the need for users to learn a new markup system, and allows them to edit, just like they do anywhere else. No arguments, no learning necessary. I’ve never had a user, across 40 or so installs complain or ask me for more granular control. NEVER. not once.

I don’t even feel strongly enough about textile to care about it. I respect the quality and quantity of work that has gone into improving it and making it more robust, but on my installs I simply turn it off. Rather than simplifying anything, I find that it adds something new for a client to learn, which defeats the whole purpose.

Obviously a user/client is capable of learning to use it, but why? It’s like me calling you up, and insisting that you speak to me in pig-latin. It’s not that hard, but it just takes longer to say anything, and doing so has no benefit.

In fact there’s a great Monty Python sketch about it. “Hello, were interested in looking at your ‘dog kennels’ “

I think good, simple, elegant and functional UI is a prerequisite to actual usability. The act of shaping accessibility into a pyramid, where there are few options immediately visible and successive layers that reveal more power/capabilities, is just plain good design. It’s also why TV’s have one or fewer buttons on the front.

I really do think you can have your cake and eat it too.

For example. most of my mods to TXPs UI for clients come in the form of removing irrelevant stuff. Do I care that every image on the image tab lists out all information, including tag builders, textile links categories… all kinds of information? No I want to see the image, an ID. If I move over the image and hover maybe I want to know more about it. Otherwise I want it to stop shouting information about itself like it has tourettes syndrome or something.

The one thing that drew me to txp in the first place was very simple. The dichotomy of two upper level tabs. Content =“Client/User” Presentation=“Me”.

Breathtakingly simple. Does it take any power away from the things I can do? No. Does it help when I tell a client that they only have to worry about three subtabs or one Tab, absolutely! It’s why as a matter of course I add a front side editing link. They CAN learn how to use the article tabs to find a piece of content, or they can click on a link on the front side, to bring it up.

You really can have your cake and eat it too.

But the reality of it is for my part, I’m delighted we’re doing TXP 5 soonish. I’m happy to have all the new features and hide shit from clients/users if I have to.

… speaking of clients …

back to work.

Thanks all.

hcgtv · 2011-01-28 03:21:14

mrdale wrote:

I always install TinyMCE on TXP installs and turn off textile before I ever offer a client choices. I do this simply because it removes the need for users to learn a new markup system, and allows them to edit, just like they do anywhere else. No arguments, no learning necessary. I’ve never had a user, across 40 or so installs complain or ask me for more granular control. NEVER. not once.

Ok, this brings up an excellent point. I too was once responsible for the 9 to 5 user, diligently setting up their workstations, oh how I made their Windows machines hum, only to see them spend their days playing solitaire. And when the Internet came about, the fractional T1’s I unselfishly shared with the whole staff, only to see them surfing porn all day.

Today, I’m not at all interested in the 9 to 5ers, I’m interested in those that want to evolve. There in lies the crossroads that divide us at this stage. Where Dale is interested in his clients, I’m fighting for the empowerment of those that want to do more with their computers than play games or look at pron.

Yes, we’re at odds. It’s the digital divide between those that have their VCR’s blinking 12:00 all day, and those that have hooked up an aging PC to their TV and are trying to get the best resolution they can from an old ATI card while running MythTV.

Which brings us to our dilemma, do we empower the web developer so as to make their job easier, or do we empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites? This tug of war that we’ve carried on for years, can’t continue. We’re at a crossroads, we either cater to one side or the other, but we can’t do both successfully. We can either be Debian or Ubuntu, but philosophically we can’t be both.

While I sympathize with Dale, I’m not going to make excuses for Textile, either you get it or you don’t. And I’m not being elitist here, I’m all for flooding users with how-tos and startup kits, but I’m not going to try to make Textpattern cater to someone who’d be better off on Facebook or Windows Live, yeah send them to the cloud.

I don’t want to turn Textpattern into WordPress, and for the life of me, I can’t understand how anyone would get that idea from anything I’ve ever said. Textpattern is a gem of a system waiting to be discovered, and those that should be enlightened are those that can take advantage of the elegant txp:tag syntax, not those handicapped by TinyMCE.

We’re at the beginnings of the web, sorry if people my age just don’t get it, but we shouldn’t punish the teenagers that have a clue by subjecting them to inferior systems that dominate the web landscape. It should be our jobs to educate, elucidate and bring an alternative to light.

TL:DR – Textpattern lies between Expression Engine and WordPress, we should strive to be neither, but be a viable alternative to both.

Last edited by hcgtv (2011-01-28 03:26:18)

Algaris · 2011-01-28 11:18:48

I have to agree mostly with Dale on this. Whenever I use Textpattern one of the first things I do is turn Textile off and install hak_tiny_mce, and hide various elements in the admin via plug-ins. Most of the clients I’ve worked with wouldn’t have the time or patience for Textile. A lot of them work with tabular data for example. it’s easier for them to click a couple of buttons to insert a table and then paste in text than use Textile. I personally love the image browser.

I’m not saying we should dumb down the core by hiding all the advanced options and add WYSIWYG elements, etc. in fact we should have high aims but what I would like is the option to customise and strip back or hide elements (without having to hack the core) as I see fit and according to my clients needs. I don’t believe its dumbing down, the options would still there and for some clients I would quite happily leave them enabled.

I’m personally of the opinion that we can have our cake and eat it too. It doesn’t have to be either one or the other.

Last edited by Algaris (2011-01-28 11:23:40)

jsoo · 2011-01-28 13:53:12

hcgtv wrote:

do we empower the web developer so as to make their job easier, or do we empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites?

That’s a different dichotomy than Dale presents. We don’t have to “empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites”; that would, indeed, be going after the WP market. But we should be very concerned with empowering designers and developers to present their clients with an easy-to-use system. I don’t think this is philosophically different from where Txp is now.

hcgtv · 2011-01-28 14:42:48

jsoo wrote:

We don’t have to “empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites”; that would, indeed, be going after the WP market. But we should be very concerned with empowering designers and developers to present their clients with an easy-to-use system. I don’t think this is philosophically different from where Txp is now.

Alright Jeff, I now understand “The direction of Textpattern 5”.

mrdale · 2011-01-28 15:12:39

Couple things, Bert (I appreciate your view and respectfully disagree)

I am interested in the devs (you and I) who want to be able to build powerful sites.
I am interested in the 9 to 5 users (site editors) who just want their sites to look good and be able to edit the content with a minimum of fuss
I do “get” textile, and find it to be a functional impediment to site editors actually editing content.

Which brings us to our dilemma, do we empower the web developer so as to make their job easier, or do we empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites?

Like I said earlier, I believe is a false choice. I’m saying that with a well thought out UI you can easily have both. You can have the power lurking underneath, for devs to access, without it having to be front and center in the default UI.

We don’t have to “empower the user to make it easier to launch his or her sites”; that would, indeed, be going after the WP market. But we should be very concerned with empowering designers and developers to present their clients with an easy-to-use system. I don’t think this is philosophically different from where Txp is now.

I could not agree more. Well, maybe if I got a pony in the bargain.

At the end of the day I think a good CMS is about CONTENT MANAGEMENT and anything that can simplify that primary task is going to mean site editors presenting information more often. TXP has been really good to me and my clients in this regard. Especially when you add front-side edit links to the mix.

All good though. These are good things to talk about.

michaelkpate · 2011-01-28 15:59:15

I’ve been working on my first theme in a few years – a combination of remembering and relearning. One thing I would like to see:

<txp:if_category>
<txp:else />
	<txp:if_search>
	</txp:if_search>
</txp:if_category>
<txp:if_individual_article>
<txp:else />
</txp:if_individual_article>

Putting all the articles in the article section and assigning a specific page template to that section alleviates need for the last 3 lines. But there is no ability to have a custom search and category page without relying on a rather complex structure.

I realize this is actually an improvement from the pre-4.x era and makes things pretty flexible but also adds more complexity to someone starting out.

Last edited by michaelkpate (2011-01-31 13:36:40)

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#61 2011-01-27 19:48:13

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#62 2011-01-27 22:07:12

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#63 2011-01-27 22:12:06

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#64 2011-01-27 23:51:58

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#65 2011-01-28 00:57:24

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#66 2011-01-28 01:02:20

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#67 2011-01-28 03:21:14

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#68 2011-01-28 11:18:48

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#69 2011-01-28 13:53:12

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#70 2011-01-28 14:42:48

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#71 2011-01-28 15:12:39

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#72 2011-01-28 15:59:15

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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