The direction of Textpattern 5

Bryon · 2012-11-01 03:00:16

I see the comments system in a similar light to the css system. They both need to be yanked. By that I mean removed from needing database tables other than for possibly live backups, archiving, storage or wtf-I-just-screwed-up-age.

In the case of css I would rather have a means of editing them in the admin as now but saving them as xml with the option of converting them to xslt. This would speed up the backend check any site that loads more than one style sheet at pingdome, hover the sheets and check the wait time.

For comments I also would prefer pulling them out of the database and storing them in xml. This would do a couple of things to save stef an Aneurysm being one. Most importantly it could lend time for the transfer between current usage and future as both systems could function at the same time if given the option in settings. It could make importing/exporting to other formats much more possible forums, FB, Twitter, irc, Jabber etc. Lastly, that I can imagine, it could make for headway on user style sheets think Opera browser Author/User modes which are the inevitable future.

For layout and order I personally like what webplatform.org has done at http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/ using Q&A http://premium.wpmudev.org/project/qa-wordpress-questions-and-answers-plugin . etc/Oleg should find that interesting. Also, while on this subject, please look back to the issues that wilshire was dealing with 7 years ago as it still has relevance http://www.wilshireone.com/article/95/textpattern-comments-tutorial.

btw, seeing “I’m sorry Dave I’m afraid I can’t do that” a million times while trying to post something as trivial as the above links has surely made more than a few people have second thoughts about textpattern in general. I like the tags system in textpattern but textile is a pita. It’s not cute, it’s not funny and it doesn’t help to do anything but make people angry. Hopefully before v5 we can realize that Mr. Allen has left the building and get rid of it. I’ve been using textpattern since ’04 and I still hate textile with a passion. It was a neat idea but it didn’t catch on and it never got finished. Hint: it probably never will.

Bloke · 2012-11-01 09:48:10

Bryon wrote:

In the case of css

Cacheing the CSS (and maybe other things) to the filesystem is probably on the list of things to do one day. Not sure right now. Regarding turning CSS to XML, erm, never thought about it.

I’ve been using textpattern since ’04 and I still hate textile with a passion.

Then you’ll be pleased to hear that in v4.6 you can drop in your own markup system in place of it. If you want to try it out, grab a nightly.

P.S. I’ve written a patch to hide all comment paraphernalia when comments are switched off. This includes:

The entire Comments panel, including its menu item
The comments column in the Articles panel
The comments invite area in the Write panel (as it does now)
The Comments section of the Forms panel
The Comments tag builder option in the Forms panel (is this a shade too far?)

In testing now; will probably appear in tonight’s nightly if it works ok. Next step will be to look into opening up the comments system to make it easier for plugins to drop in their own comments solutions. Then maybe looking at the tag suite.

moon blake · 2012-11-01 10:07:20

Bloke wrote:

The easy(ier) solution is to:

leave them as they are, but with better tag handling and less confusing options (possibly revisit the <txp:comment_* /> tag suite and simplify it or make it more usable).

Thumbs up for this (and the other three points, too). Comments should stay in the core. They are important for some type of websites (classical blogs, community oriented sites). Tlhey can contain high quality content. And the downside of tools like disqus is that they are not indexed by search engines, as far as I know. And personally I prefer to have it on my own server, in most cases. Depends again on the type of your site.

philwareham · 2012-11-01 10:30:22

Agreed, comments should stay as core for those that want them. Improvements to the current system are needed though. Stef’s comment removal patch (which I’ve just tested and approved) is a good solution for those that want to roll their own comments systems or have no need for comments on their site.

Bryon · 2012-11-01 10:32:22

Bloke wrote:
Then you’ll be pleased to hear that in v4.6 you can drop in your own markup system in place of it.

Actually I always set textpattern to default to leave text untouched. I was referring to this forum. Formatting text should be universal. Requiring textile in a public place, to me, would be like asking all Americans to drive on the left side of the road every time stef comes for a visit. Kinda goes against the grain ;)

Btw, the css via xslt is just a wishlist thing but I was completely serious about xml based comments. I am interested in getting your and etc/Oleg’s opinions about GS. I just posted in this thread here http://get-simple.info/forums/showthread.php?tid=3693&pid=29374#pid29374 a few musings about their future.

Just a quick overview of what I am thinking here. HTML5 is basically a merging of HTML4.01 and javascript with a few needed improvements/fixes. None the less it is a major step forward. However, where is XHTML5? And where are the future inter-operibilities that XML always promised? And who amongst available cms’s is capitalizing on it? It seems to me that XML (and XHTML) has been pushed into the background, designated by most as only being useful for rss or spreadsheets. Yet, textpattern has used XHTML 1.0 Transitional for nearly a decade all while sending it as html/text… for what? What were we waiting for? Why didn’t we ever get to send it for what it was designed for? Those promised abilities of increased inter-operability. And now there is JSON. Great, javascript’s attempt at subverting XML. It won’t happen. It might happen for people like Twitter who would rather keep their api’s in the hands of experienced devs and out of the hands of average users but that is about the extent of it. I don’t see the masses ever using it beyond a front end click. Still, the promise is there and XHTML5 does exist and browsers are beginning to adopt it (as well as <IE9 workarounds). I was thrilled to see etc/Oleg’s etc_query (based upon one of your plugins if I do recall correctly) using Xpath! Talk about a target market for a cms! Yikes. Take a wild guess how many libraries and universities there are in this world that have massive volumes of XML files!

Anyway, if you can, check out how GS does it’s thing. I’d love to get your and etc’s opinion of it.

Last edited by Bryon (2012-11-01 10:33:51)

etc · 2012-11-01 17:29:58

Storing threaded comments in XML looks like a natural idea, of course. With XSLT we could easily output them in a variety of formats, both public and admin side. But there is some drawback: processing tags like <txp:recent_comments /> could take more time than with DB query. Testing is needed to see if the balance is positive.

Storing all data in XML files (which would imply a total txp rewrite) is too memory/time expensive, from my pov. But the ability to import/query/transform XML data as provided by smd_xml and my amateurish etc_query plugins, could probably find its place in the core. In which form? I don’t know, how do you see it?

Destry · 2012-11-01 18:17:39

Bloke wrote:

I’ve written a patch to hide all comment paraphernalia … Next step will be to look into opening up the comments system to make it easier for plugins to drop in their own comments solutions. Then maybe looking at the tag suite.

All hail Spartacus!

Bryon · 2012-11-01 20:58:52

etc wrote:
… processing tags like <txp:recent_comments /> could take more time than with DB query.

Bloke mentioned possibly reworking the tags. If there were only 1 comment tag <txp:comment> with variables such as how_recent=“60m” it might not be much of an issue.

etc wrote:
Storing all data in XML files (which would imply a total txp rewrite) is too memory/time expensive, from my pov.

True. The way I see it is that sending static content like pages/css via XML would be the greatest savings both to DB queries and in transfer time. I have the feeling it would be a noticeable difference if PHP didn’t have to wait for an sql server’s response and then the main server attempt sending out everything at once, creating bottlenecks of scripts and images. Articles that may have a lot of dynamic content would probably be better left as is.

My knowledge of PHP is based mostly on observance. Making something like this happen would be up to those who have much more experience with it than myself. How it could become part of the core? Not sure but I believe that XML and Xpath should most definitely be part of textpattern’s core arsenal. I wouldn’t think Xquery is needed since there would be no need for non-core files to be concerned with a DB.

wet · 2012-11-02 05:35:34

Bryon wrote:

btw, seeing “I’m sorry Dave I’m afraid I can’t do that” a million times while trying to post something as trivial as the above links has surely made more than a few people have second thoughts about textpattern in general.

JFTR: This is the forum’s spam filter catching new members like you trying to post a fistful of links and has absolutely no relevance to Textile in general or its use at this forum. You can thank the helpful forum spammers for this inconvenience.

Bryon · 2012-11-02 06:55:11

wet wrote:
JFTR: This is the forum’s spam filter catching new members like you trying to post a fistful of links and has absolutely no relevance to Textile in general or its use at this forum. You can thank the helpful forum spammers for this inconvenience.

That much made sense about the 3rd or 4th time I decided to never use these forums again. Yet no one has ever been able to explain why some still insist on using such an insidious markup that only helps drives new users away while presenting Textpattern as a cultish relic run by zealots that enjoy bending the learning curve further than absolutely necessary just to appease some subliminal geek fetish. I also enjoy climbing a pole sometimes and screaming “I’m Different! Look at me! I’m Unique!” but I’m not about to opensource the practice and state that I am adhering to any standard.

wet · 2012-11-02 07:49:08

IMHO, Textile is no more or less an “insidious” markup as Markdown, BBCode, or Wikitext. What would you suggest as a replacement for Textile in this forum?

Bloke · 2012-11-02 10:23:12

Regarding comments, the first step is committed in r4537. I’ve scaled it back a little based on good constructive feedback.

The comments_display form has been moved to the ‘Comment’ group so you can tuck all the comment-related stuff away when you don’t want them (or you can reuse them for your own comment purposes, or create your own new forms in that group, yahde yahde). The loss of “preview” ability on the comments_display form is not a great problem imo compared with the benefit of keeping all the form stuff together. The tag builder options remain visible, btw.

When Accept comments is set to No in Preferences:

The Comments panel and its menu item are removed
The comments column in the Articles panel is removed
The comments invite area in the Write panel is removed (as it is now)

Hopefully there’ll be more stuff on the way to help plugins integrate their own comment solutions. It might be possible already, but we’ll see if there’s anything else that can be done to make things simpler.

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#301 2012-11-01 03:00:16

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#302 2012-11-01 09:48:10

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#303 2012-11-01 10:07:20

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#304 2012-11-01 10:30:22

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#305 2012-11-01 10:32:22

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#306 2012-11-01 17:29:58

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#307 2012-11-01 18:17:39

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#308 2012-11-01 20:58:52

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#309 2012-11-02 05:35:34

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#310 2012-11-02 06:55:11

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#311 2012-11-02 07:49:08

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

#312 2012-11-02 10:23:12

Re: The direction of Textpattern 5

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