[feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

mrdale · 2007-05-15 22:04:08

…patience, grasshopper :)

Peter Mount · 2007-05-16 00:25:35

One thing Drew Mclellan mentioned was the lack of a roadmap. This was after he brought up the issue of sponsorship. He seemed to say that it wasn’t worthwhile investing time helping out with TextPattern without the guarantee that that such help would be implemented. This is where a roadmap is needed.

Is there a plan on how this sponsorship model will develop? Will there be a roadmap available for everybody to see?

A roadmap would alleviate the problem of waiting for the time it takes for new features to come into the core of TextPattern. At least people would know what is coming.

I was planning to spend time on using TextPattern soon but after Drew raised his concerns I’ve had to shelve that idea until the dust settles on his article. After all it was Drew’s blog that made me aware of TextPattern in the first place.

I’d like some clear answers on this as I’ve already spent some time getting up to speed on TextPattern and it would be a shame to dump it for something else (I’ve started looking at ExpressionEngine).

mrdale · 2007-05-16 00:31:27

Good point, peter, a roadmap would be good idea, let everyone know what’s planned. Hang in there, TXP is a great little framework. :)

zem · 2007-05-16 00:57:54

We don’t have a road map for reasons repeated many times before: Textpattern is made from the code we have, not the code we want.

What we do have is some guidelines explaining in general terms the types of patches we’re likely to accept or reject.

Developers: if you have an idea for a new feature that you’re thinking of building, and want to know whether or not we’d accept a patch, please contact us or post on the Development forum. We’ll do our best to give an indication as to whether or not we’d likely accept it.

Currently the “road map” for 4.0.5 looks like this:

Finish fixing bugs
Include good quality, low risk, high payoff patches

It’s exactly the same as the road map for every other version we’ve ever released. The ETA is, “when we’re absolutely certain it’s rock solid, polished and complete”.

If you’d like to volunteer to add something specific to that list, please post on the development forum.

If you’d like to help bring the release date closer, test. Tell us what works and what doesn’t. Test each new change. Post the results, both positive and negative. When we do fix a bug, please confirm whether or not the fix works – we need to know if we’ve broken something else. Please don’t assume we know about bugs; chances are, if we haven’t fixed something, it’s because we don’t either know about it, or don’t have enough information to fix it.

The surest way to guarantee that a bug fix or feature is not included in Textpattern is to sit back and wait for someone else to do it for you.

Last edited by zem (2007-05-16 01:21:10)

zem · 2007-05-16 01:29:51

if the TxP devs can’t come up with a scheme to make monies from their efforts, then their only choice would be to give up control

There is no control to give up. The direction of Textpattern is controlled by those who submit patches.

If we could control that, we might have an actual road map.

to those people that are willing to work for the love of the GPL.

If you know any, please ask them to send patches.

Last edited by zem (2007-05-16 01:35:50)

Mary · 2007-05-16 02:04:36

The comments from a handful of people have been that Txp is stagnant and going nowhere and that they were looking for solutions elsewhere. Does that not indicate that you think there are unfixable deficiencies, and that you’re uninterested in what we do? Is it not reasonable for me to then say the equivalent of, “Okay, goodbye and good luck, then”? Or would you rather be ignored altogether?

TheEric · 2007-05-16 02:12:07

So is 4.05 going to be a maintenance release, or are there going to be specific additions?

Peter Mount · 2007-05-16 02:12:58

There is no control to give up. The direction of Textpattern is controlled by those who submit patches.

Who decides on which patches to use? Isn’t that a form of control?

Would it be a problem to take the wish list and turn that into a roadmap? If people are making money from commercial TextPattern plugins would it not be in their own best interests to ensure a viable roadmap to keep TextPattern going?

maniqui · 2007-05-16 02:30:24

A roadmap?
I prefer surprises!

alexandra wrote:

If you (zem & mary) don´t like to listen and take other people ideas into account, nothing will happen/change. By the end zem and you will be the last 2 txp users. That would be very frustrating, wouldn´t it?

I don’t think zem & mary deserve that…
In the last month, zem & mary have listened lot of complains about TxP and the way they handle the development process. I agree with nardo: I have confidence in TxP Team.

BTW, count me as the 3rd last TXP user.

Open ID? robust comment spam? tags?
The Web is simplier.
We should keep standing on the shoulder of giants.

(mmm, me again writing and making non-sense stuff… but after reading this thread, I feel I’m not alone… about writing and making non-sense at all)

Mary · 2007-05-16 03:15:16

…or are there going to be specific additions?

I’m not sure what you’re asking exactly, but I’ll try and answer that once more.

Logoleptic · 2007-05-16 06:59:42

Thanks for the blog post, Mary. It should help clear things up for people.

Hopefully the new book will bring some new developer interest to Txp, thus speeding things up a bit.

I think it’s important to note what Textpattern has going for it:

Security. Since the release of 4.0.4, how many “OMG HAX0RZ WILL KEEL U” security releases has WordPress had? At least three that I can think of, and I’m not even thinking that hard. TextPattern? Zero.
Stability. I kind of like not feeling pressure to upgrade the foundation of a website every four months, thank you very much.
Speed. In my experience, Textpattern is typically faster at rendering pages than the competition. Caching plugins make it faster still.
Flexibility. Things that are hard in systems like WordPress are easy in Txp. The template system is somewhat complex, but very powerful. Plugins abound.
Community. This is one of the most helpful CMS forums I’ve participated in. Active and well-organized, too.

And what is it missing?

A roadmap to soothe the doubters. I understand why this isn’t practical, but it could have a beneficial effect on community morale. Even a general “we’re shooting for these features in the next release” would help, and we’re already seeing those statements for crockery.
A release treadmill. No big loss there.
Pingback and trackback support. Sorry, but this is important for the bloggers out there. Trackback support is available, but only as a two-year-old hack with German documentation.
Simple navigation handling. The built-in tags got better at this in 4.0.4, and more improvements are probably underway for 4.0.5. With nested sections and unlimited categories in 4.1.x, we’ll have to see this stuff dramatically overhauled. I’m very curious to see how that comes out. Meanwhile, some plugins are filling the void.

Those are my thoughts. I’m working on my PHP chops, and will probably be investigating the pingback/trackback issue if nobody else gets to it first.

ramanan · 2007-05-16 15:00:49

If people are so damn unhappy I don’t see why they don’t just fork TxP. The code is all “free”. If people think they can do a better job of things than Alex, Pedro, Sencer, Mary, etc, etc, why not do so. Complaining isn’t going to make things magically better, though it is certainly much easier.

Last edited by ramanan (2007-05-16 15:01:50)

Logoleptic · 2007-05-16 15:10:12

A lot of people have expectations of free (as in speech) software that are based on their experiences of commercial software. I don’t think that’s the case with Drew, though. He seems willing to contribute if he knew what direction he should work toward. I doubt he has the time and energy to manage a fork, however.

colak · 2007-05-16 16:09:24

I agree with Logoleptic

What I would like to know is whether those who complain are mac or pc users…
My experience in both platforms indicates that pcs need daily updating: system bug fixes, antiviral software, security fixes, anti-spyware, etc…
Mac’s? Updating the sys security and virus sw once a month is enough….

To me txp is a mac. It does not need the daily patches. It just works.

Every time there is a new txp version out I found that there are minor bugs which have always been fixed very quickly and efficiently. If the releases were more frequent those bugs would keep on manifesting in different parts of the code and we would be doing nothing else except uploading txp via our ftp clients… Is this what people want?

I used to want to have the latest and the newest… Now, I think that this rat race is pointless and I am looking for reliability and stability. TXP gives me both. I don’t give a s*** if there’s going to be a new version anytime soon. What I do care about is for that version to offer me a seamless upgrade. This will not be possible if things are rushed. Updating is not an ends in itself. Content is. If people here focused more on the content of their websites as opposed to what happens in the back end, maybe this discussion would never happen.

Most of us are probably using about 50% of txp’s possibilities anyway.

Speaking for myself I cannot think of more than a handful of ~~improvements~~ feature ideas which, at the moment, they are available as plugins anyway…

This does not mean that i want txp development to stop… What I do want is for the software to thoughtfully expand. And this is only possible if sufficient time and support is given to the devs.

Last edited by colak (2007-05-16 16:12:28)

Logoleptic · 2007-05-16 17:31:51

What I would like to know is whether those who complain are mac or pc users…

Well, I’m a PC user. I’m not sure the expectations for Web software are necessarily the same as those for desktop software.

One thing people should keep in mind is that no one CMS is perfect for everything. Some things are possible with Drupal that I’d never try to attempt with Txp. If you’re only making a straight-up weblog, WordPress is great. And so on. If Textpattern tries to be all things to all people, it runs the risk of being nothing to nobody.

Last edited by Logoleptic (2007-05-16 17:32:09)

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#16 2007-05-15 22:04:08

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#17 2007-05-16 00:25:35

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#18 2007-05-16 00:31:27

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#19 2007-05-16 00:57:54

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#20 2007-05-16 01:29:51

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#21 2007-05-16 02:04:36

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#22 2007-05-16 02:12:07

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#23 2007-05-16 02:12:58

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#24 2007-05-16 02:30:24

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#25 2007-05-16 03:15:16

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#26 2007-05-16 06:59:42

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#27 2007-05-16 15:00:49

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#28 2007-05-16 15:10:12

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#29 2007-05-16 16:09:24

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

#30 2007-05-16 17:31:51

Re: [feedback] Drew Mclellan on the state of Textpattern

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