localised typography for Textile

wet · 2006-09-19 08:57:02

Understood. So there’s definitely a real need for a distinct glyph to cover apostrophe’s, a “9” on the upper line boundary. No kiddin’.

Skubidu · 2006-09-19 09:22:44

There are three case´s in German:

single quotes (looking like a subscript 9 and a superscript 6): Er sagte: 'Das ist aber schön!' should become Er sagte: ‚Das ist aber schön!‘
genetives (looking like a superscript 9): Das ist Hans' Stift should become Das ist Hans’ Stift
shortenings (looking like a superscript 9): Das gibt's doch gar nicht! should become Das gibt’s doch gar nicht!

Last edited by Skubidu (2006-09-19 09:23:06)

marios · 2006-09-19 15:16:57

I reverted back to Unicode checker in order to map the correct Unicode value, to the Glyphs produced using these key strokes.
So here is a Summary:

Normally used quoting style:

Opening a quote:Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
«	U+00AB	<code>«</code>	LEFT POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK UNICODE 1.1 NAME
Closing a quote: Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
»	U+00BB	<code>»</code>	RIGHT POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK

Secondary or nested style:

Opening a quote:Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
‹	U+2039	<code>‹</code>	LEFT POINTING SINGLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK UNICODE 1.1 NAME
Closing a quote: Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
›	U+203A	<code>›</code>	RIGHT POINTING SINGLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK

<br />

The rendering of the glyph should be fairly the same for all fonts.
I can not get at the third or forth type,since I don’t use such software as Word or openoffice,but I can see, that they are there, if pressing opt command, and opt cammand shift.
(however, I have rarely seen those quote styles)

Greek keyboards are using a QUERTY LAYOUT (thank God)
Also , all the above, is when we are talking about XHTML and Unicode, not when we are talking about Texteditors, that
might map specific punctuation characters in different proprietary ways, (haven’t been able to find out which code point values those are for Word, or such)

The system or ASCII quote style remain in the same place as on a US-keyboard layout, next to the return key, towards the left.

Update, one screenshot that shows which Glyphs become available for option:

<br />

Smartquotes, available at number key 9 with option modifier

Opening a quote:Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
“	U+201D	<code>“</code>	DOUBLE TURNED COMMA QUOTATION MARK UNICODE 1.1 NAME
Closing a quote: Glyph	Unicode value	dec XHTML	name
”	U+201C	<code>”</code>	DOUBLE COMMA QUOTATION MARK

Glyph for smart quotes, is supposed to be filled 6699, however many fonts map another Glyph there instead, which looks entirely different(As can be seen on my Browser for Instance)

regards, marios

Last edited by marios (2006-09-20 00:04:15)

Skubidu · 2006-09-19 21:36:51

I tried to assemble a list of the most commom German typographical issues. The list opposes a possible input with its typographical transformation. You can find the list here.

Please feel free to comment :)

zem · 2006-09-19 23:12:30

One question regarding the two quote styles („…“ / ‚…‘ vs »…« / ›…‹ ): would it be common to use a mix of the two styles in a document? Or is it pretty much one or the other?

There are three ways we could approach multiple quote styles in Textile:

One is to have some kind of setting or mode to select the style you want. “dumb” ‘quotes’ produce either „dumb“ / ‚quotes‘ or »dumb« / ›quotes‹ depending on that setting.

Two is, we use additional Textile markup characters to stand in for the second quote styles. Perhaps >dumb< >>quotes<< or similar.

And three is, we support only one style of quote per language (either „…“ / ‚…‘ or »…« / ›…‹, whichever is more common), and allow the user to manually enter the other using the character map or similar. This is the current situation.

Last edited by zem (2006-09-19 23:13:31)

marios · 2006-09-20 00:20:33

I think the third option would make more sense. As for the modern greek, I believe that the second quoting style (from my post above) is
pretty dangerous.(Could be easily confused with greater then and lesser then sign, which creates other problems then.)
For modern Greek, I would assume, the first mentioned one to be standard.

regards, marios

Skubidu · 2006-09-20 06:47:25

I think for German the first option would be the best one. Which quotes are more common depends on what you are writing. In general „these“ quotes are the standard ones. But if you are writing more literary texts »the others« are the one you use.

The second option would be a nice addition, but it’s not a common syntax (which might be a problem).

The third one is an improvement, but it’s not that satisfactory:)

Skubidu · 2006-09-20 06:50:59

One question regarding the two quote styles („…“ / ‚…‘ vs »…« / ›…‹ ): would it be common to use a mix of the two styles in a document? Or is it pretty much one or the other?

Normally it should be just one of the two styles. But it’s not “forbidden” to mix both.

One question I have in mind: How should quotes be handled if an author switches languages in his text?

wet · 2006-09-20 08:54:53

Additionally, if this was a per-site setting, what about subsequent changes? Textile is parsed at article save time, so later changes in a site wide setting won’t affect older articles without a re-save.

Maybe this could be a per-article setting with a global default preference along the lines of “enable comments”. Then a tool to reparse selected articles would come handy. The UI would fit nicely into the bottom drop down at the article list page.

I’ll go and fire the feature creep alarm ;-)

zem · 2006-09-20 22:48:17

Long term, we probably need to do two things:

1. Partially separate the language and locale settings, so you can select between (for example) different German locales for dates and punctuation when using the German translation.

2. Provide some way of overriding the locale in Textile, perhaps related to the %[de-de]language override% syntax.

jakob · 2006-09-22 22:38:25

Great table, Nils. It corroborates with Forssman+De Jongs Detailtypografie. You’re right, the »…« quotes are used mostly in literary texts or fancy book publishing.

I like the idea of using >> and << but will it not become a problem for French quotes which use these quotes exactly the other way around, i.e. «Mon Dieu!»? That will surely lead to parsing confusion with HTML-tags.

Like Nils I think the first option (pref – normal or fancy quotes) in combination with the third (enter manually) would be best.

I also think the language override option is important or it will torpedo all those doing multi-language sites. Ideally I think it should be a per-article override option. A common situation for multi-language sites is that the txp interface language is in the home language of the operator but that articles are also published as a whole in other languages (e.g. in a different section). It would be a major pain for authors to have to enclose every article text/paragraph/textile-unit in <notextile>%[en-gb] … %</notextile>. A lang attribute for txp articles would be good web practice in general.

Skubidu · 2006-09-23 09:46:04

A common situation for multi-language sites is that the txp interface language is in the home language of the operator but that articles are also published as a whole in other languages (e.g. in a different section). It would be a major pain for authors to have to enclose every article text/paragraph/textile-unit in %[en-gb] … %. A lang attribute for txp articles would be good web practice in general.

Maybe it would be possible to create a tag that allows you to switch the language settings, e. g. <txp:locales lang="de-de">...</txp:locales>.

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#13 2006-09-19 08:57:02

Re: localised typography for Textile

#14 2006-09-19 09:22:44

Re: localised typography for Textile

#15 2006-09-19 15:16:57

Re: localised typography for Textile

#16 2006-09-19 21:36:51

Re: localised typography for Textile

#17 2006-09-19 23:12:30

Re: localised typography for Textile

#18 2006-09-20 00:20:33

Re: localised typography for Textile

#19 2006-09-20 06:47:25

Re: localised typography for Textile

#20 2006-09-20 06:50:59

Re: localised typography for Textile

#21 2006-09-20 08:54:53

Re: localised typography for Textile

#22 2006-09-20 22:48:17

Re: localised typography for Textile

#23 2006-09-22 22:38:25

Re: localised typography for Textile

#24 2006-09-23 09:46:04

Re: localised typography for Textile

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