Cosmetic Surgery

masa · 2006-09-25 13:12:49

raveoli wrote:

Zem – you seem to miss my point in your defensive, arrogant, polically correct but nevertheless sarcastic tone…

I didn’t see anything defensive nor arrogant in Zem’s post. On the other hand your own, previous post struck me as a bit elitist.

It seems the design will come from mary, whatever anyone else comes up with – so why should I work on it – ie. “include a patch” as you so eloquently put it?

If you could come up with a superior design it would certainly be noticed and taken into account. After all you mentioned that you care about the future of the project.

raveoli · 2006-09-25 19:52:45

Masa > As indicated in my previous posts, I don’t feel a desperate need for a redesign of the admin. Not for the sole purpose of change or just plain eye candy. Of course time cannot stand still, and usability wise lots of stuff could be done to the admin, though I still find it quite usable. I don’t understand why Zem got the idea I was complaining, but he may feel hurt somehow.

Summa summarum: I’m not gonna come up with a design / photoshop mock-up, before the whole structure / the workflow of the admin has been thoroughly investigated and discussed. And a visual identity of Textpattern agreed upon by the developers. As is now I see various typefaces, yellow, orange, etc, all over. That makes it pretty difficult to work from.

That’s my whole point; Photoshop mock-ups are pointless before those critical foundations for a proper redesign has been laid out clearly. I admire the work done by various users who’ve come up with new “skins” for the admin. But frankly, they are in all different directions, and don’t do nothing revolutionary for the actual everyday use of the admin. That is not to be grateful, but to be honest. Frankly, I’m not a fan of “skinning” and never has been – I like functional design. Like the iPod. Like the current Textpattern admin;-)

So if anything, I’d come up with a mindmap or a conceptmap, as a starting point for a discussion of the workflow / structure of the current admin. Then it would be interesting to hear what other users think, and see what numerous iterations would end up like. And then, hopefully ending up with a somehow general consensus of the direction a redesign should go. Only then, after that, photoshop mock-ups would be interesting. And then for sure they would look radically different, and more interesting. Because the footwork, the research and analysis, had been done in advance, laying a solid foundation for renewed creativity.

I hope my words come across as helpful or interesting or thoughtful or friendly, or at least dedicated;-)

Last edited by raveoli (2006-09-25 19:57:24)

Mary · 2006-09-26 00:41:54

You obviously haven’t a clue what has already been done and what is being done. And I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about a large group of people, including but beyond the core developers. Not a crime, but when you start slamming other people because of that ignorance – don’t expect anyone to react the way you desire. Name-calling, at least, is below you, so knock it off. If you’ve got a personal problem with Alex or me or anyone here for that matter, take it elsewhere.

Mature discussion, constructive criticism, fresh ideas, new contributions – these are always welcome. Anyone of the active contributors (testers, patchers, etc) could tell you that, if you bothered to find out.

Let’s move on now, to the task at hand. If you want to participate in a civil, non-adolescent discussion, then please do so.

zem · 2006-09-26 01:09:17

It seems the design will come from mary, whatever anyone else comes up with – so why should I work on it – ie. “include a patch” as you so eloquently put it?

The design will come from whoever produces it. If you’d like to contribute, please do – we’ll welcome the help.

My point is merely this: opinions don’t solve anything. If something needs improving, do something towards improving it: make a patch, edit a mockup, produce a mindmap, post a bug report, test. That’s how things get done. Posting an opinion might be cathartic, but achieves nothing.

And it’s not defensiveness or arrogance. If I’m terse, it’s because arguing is a waste of time and energy. Please, go do stuff.

alexandra · 2006-09-26 09:01:55

Mary schrieb:

Mature discussion, constructive criticism, fresh ideas, new contributions – these are always welcome. Anyone of the active contributors (testers, patchers, etc) could tell you that…

As a major contributor i am or better have been for 2 years and more, i can not confirm what Mary is writing here.
I can confirm that raveoli is either the first nor the second nor the tenth saying:
your defensive, arrogant, polically correct but nevertheless sarcastic tone i even got emails by people who left txp community due to zems arrogant replys.

I can confirm by looking at marys mock ups within less than 10 seconds, she is just no designer.

Mary · 2006-09-26 09:13:40

And so it continues, and it’s sadly, totally unsurprising. Alex is a jerk, I’m a jerk and talentless hack. Anything further to add? I’m sure you’ve got lots of adjectives still bubbling away in there you haven’t already slung.

If you can do better, do so. Talk is cheap.

I am still pulling this discussion back on topic.

hazel · 2006-09-26 11:37:59

(tries to ignore the storm)

@Mary – I think the way you’ve grouped the controls with their form/legend outlines is great. Keeps txp’s famous white space, but clearly shows the hierarchy. And, they can easily be styled/collapsed with css/js if anyone wants them more ‘widget-like’.

Also wanted to re-post this, as it seemed to get lost in the storm. Constructive feedback very welcome (>’.’)>

—-

Ray · 2006-09-26 12:30:17

For what it’s worth (my 2 cents) I’d like to see the interface design left alone until AFTER the next major release.

Everything else aside, raveoli’s core point/message is valid. If there are any changes to the overall design they should be in the way of trimming away excess… same goes for the code.

In the meantime… <a href=“http://server1.sxsw.com/2006/coverage/SXSW06.INT.20060311.Opening.Remarks.mp3”>A presentation by Jim Coudal and Jason Fried at SXSW</a>. Well worth listening to.

Ace of Dubs · 2006-09-26 13:26:43

While I don’t think raveoli delivered his POV in the most elegant way possible, the man does make some valid points… Speaking as someone whose ideas got trashed plenty of times.. I can say that it forced me to improve not just the design but the content as well. I hope Mary wont take these comments to heart and instead use this feedback to make better decisions.

In the meantime lets try to stay on track folks..

First of all, I dont think Mary has done a bad job at all with her latest version. Sure I would skin it differently myself, but I think we should really be paying more attention to how content is presented, rather than the colors and graphics used. Her latest execution shows a clear effort to organize the admin tab into more digestible sections. While I applaud this effort, there are certain design choices I find cumbersome in the current admin.

Keeping in mind that the appeal of TXP is its simplicity and elegance, let’s use the write page as an example:

Why are we still using a bunch of radio buttons to select an article status? They eat up tons of space and provide the user with too many visual choices from the jump. A dropdown menu would be a welcome change.
Why is Textile Help the first thing we see on the left? Wouldn’t it be easier on the eyes (and brain) to have Textile dropdowns next to body and excerpt field with the classic [?] link for people who dont know what Textile is? This admin needs to be more consistent IMHO
As for sorting and organizing, I know when I open up TXP’s write page I think to myself… “Okay what am I going to write about?” In my opinion the selection of section/categories should come earlier in the flow of the content. It certainly is more important than Textile Help!

You can see how I have addressed these and other issues in my latest post .. any and all rants/flamings/comments are 100% welcome.

RussLipton · 2006-09-26 16:55:23

The admin design which Ace of Dubs has submitted is head-and-shoulders above Mary’s. I hope it is adopted ASAP, even if 4.0.4 has to wait a month or two. This would go a long way to incenting the best designers in the community to get to it for the future.

I also hope that longer-term mindmap brainstorming leads to a next-generation, highly configurable UI that is Ajax-able. ‘Longer-term’ meaning deliverable within six months as a point release.

I think the passions over this are not just ‘emotional’. They reflect a growing disconnect between TxP and the soon-to-be-common (already?) requirement for professionals to integrate/customize admin into their deliverables to clients.

Neko · 2006-09-26 18:57:10

I like Mary’s lastest incarnation. It’s clean, goes straight to the point, shorter header height (at least it looks like, when working on small screens it’s very useful to cut the crap on top), overall more solid. The only suggestion is that I’d like to have the “Go…” menu on the right side, I find it easier to reach it in that position.

gustaf · 2006-09-29 03:13:19

I, personally, do not care one whit about what the damn interface looks like, because if I’m using Textpattern for a client I usually redesign the backend to fit the style of their site anyway.

What I would like to see, and I think is necessary in this age of web standards, is clear crisp XHTML code in the backend. Something that a designer can manipulate with a css file rather than having to take a scalpel to the php. Hell, I’d do it myself, I’ve done it for enough sites in the past. Its not even a question of reorganizing the form elements (though that would be a nice touch), its just putting them in clearly marked divs, dls, fieldsets (and forgive me if this is already in the works, I haven’t had time to check out anything more recent than the last stable release).

No one design is going to please everyone. So the real goal would be to give us the tools to help ourselves.

Edit for grammar.

Last edited by gustaf (2006-09-29 04:45:33)

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#61 2006-09-25 13:12:49

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#62 2006-09-25 19:52:45

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#63 2006-09-26 00:41:54

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#64 2006-09-26 01:09:17

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#65 2006-09-26 09:01:55

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#66 2006-09-26 09:13:40

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#67 2006-09-26 11:37:59

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#68 2006-09-26 12:30:17

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#69 2006-09-26 13:26:43

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#70 2006-09-26 16:55:23

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#71 2006-09-26 18:57:10

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

#72 2006-09-29 03:13:19

Re: Cosmetic Surgery

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