[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

alexandra · 2006-02-27 18:47:25

Sencer sounds a bit harsh here. What he likes to say is: we already moved (see subforums). We can not expect rising an issue and solve it within seconds or hours.

Well, you know, everybody of us in daily life, in partnerships, in jobs.. rise issues and try to solve them. But that takes time. I, for instance, live in germany. Here it is 8pm. It takes 24 hours till everybody read my posting and got the chance to reply.
Please give everything a little time.

hakjoon · 2006-02-27 18:49:36

Sencer wrote:
The heart of this discussion? If I am not mistaken david and alexandra repeatedly said that it was about the process of how people from the community can help textpattern as a project. And now that we have gotten things there moving ( see the subforum), others keep piling on everything that has ever irked anybody about textpattern?

I could be wrong here (not being part of the group that drafted the original post), but I understood that the main focus was about inclusion of community contributions (in some way shape or form) so that everyone could. Of course this discussion has veered into 25 different directions so I’m not super sure if that is actually the case anymore.

That being said there are is a tremendous number of avenues for people to just get going and contribute. Textbook is a perfect example of that. It’s pure community, Textpattern.org and TXP Mag are other fantastic examples of that.

Yet even with those resources in place it’s hard to move people beyond the forum. Which I think leads well to your point here.

I can tell you from my repeated requests on the dev mailing-lists that simply having code accessible in the repository for everybody and asking them to test against their sites/plugins gives you (or me at least) very little feedback.

I think this speaks to the issues brought up above. There have been steps by the core team to move some of the development labor (testing specs) to the community. TXP 4.0.3 was made available to the dev list before release for testing and there was very little feedback on it, look at the number of threads that zem has initiated for test RSS data, themes definitions. I tried to start a textbook section for all the Image handling requests that we’re coming in for upm_img_popper, in order to tie them together into a cohesive plan and so far there’s been one contributor.

It is our responsibility to step up too when they need us. We must show the dev team that we will actually do all these things that we are talking about wanting here.

The longer this thread has gone on the more I have started to realize the how many areas there are for us as a community to get things going. Maybe the issues aren’t with Zem Sencer and Pedro maybe it’s a community issue that we must solve.

Let’s look to the examples of alicson, Destry, Alexandra, Mary and all of those who stepped up and made things happen, remember Textbook, .org and TXP Mag happened because people got it going and the community supported them, maybe we just need to take those to the next level.

It’s funny because I think this thread had the opposite effect on me then it did on many other people. I’m just seeing all the progress that has happened in the year and half since I joined this community and I’m getting really excited.

michaelkpate · 2006-02-27 18:51:07

Sencer,

I have been trying to be careful not to “bash” anyone. But you do bring up an interesting point.

> Why is it closed beta-testing? Maybe because it involves handing out accounts to people and you don’t want to give the whole world an account to that site?

Handing out accounts to what? I always assumed that dev.textpattern.com actually served a purpose of some sort.

> Just because we are core developers for textpattern doesn’t mean everything we ever do is owned by the public by default.

Ummmm… okay. Not to try to channel Richard Stallman or anything, but I guess your definition of a GPL open source project and mine kinda sorta differ.

> But I am getting tired that each and every move gets interpreted in negative ways.

I am not sure how to respond to that in a way that isn’t going to make someone upset. I think I am going to stop posting to this thread for a time until our fearless leader returns. I really think some Solomonic wisdom is called for.

squaredeye · 2006-02-27 18:56:44

Hakjoon,
Right on. Same effect on me. I’m stoked to be part of a community, and while we may want a spokesperson or some solomonic (hard to say that word) wisdom from Dean, I am really stoked about what can get done from here, and call me loony, but I’m not sceered neither.

:)

Everyone Have a really really great Monday.

hcgtv · 2006-02-27 20:27:06

> michaelkpate wrote:

> I think I am going to stop posting to this thread for a time until our fearless leader returns.

We finally get to see the famous Dean Allen, having a grand time cavorting with the enemy ;)

neutrino · 2006-02-27 23:16:55

> ma_smith wrote:

> Hakjoon,
Right on. Same effect on me. I’m stoked to be part of a community, and while we may want a spokesperson or some solomonic (hard to say that word) wisdom from Dean, I am really stoked about what can get done from here, and call me loony, but I’m not sceered neither.

lol

me neither, not sceered, just looking at big pictures instead of code (of course my sites suffer because of that but heck, there are a crapload of great looking websites out there (yours is one). I think it would be great if the “community” could state in short statements what makes us stoked about being here. What makes it a community for you? Edit: this would be a good thread to start new.

Last edited by neutrino (2006-02-27 23:20:09)

Destry · 2006-02-27 23:54:17

You know, I saw this topic title a while back and noted the title, “txp back on track,” and off-handedly thought it was just something developer oriented about getting devevelopment back on trac. Me not being overly concerned with development and also that I didn’t know who txpERT was I didn’t even bother to open the thread. Then when neutrino requested a wiki account (or was that a password reminder realization?), and made reference to all the discussion as of late, I was like huh, what discussion? Anyway, now I get it.

For what it’s worth, I think a guiding voice in the forums is a good thing. I think there already is one, and he’s already posted in this thread. Beyond that, I dont’ see a need for a “leader” per se, or what having one would expect to bring. I especially wouldn’t like to see forced leadership, but rather the existing leader publicly hand over the reins, should that time ever need to come.

Furthermore, I don’t see there being an issue with being off track either. Speaking for myself, I think there’s been great strides in recent months, but I realize what I see as strides will likely be different from a developers point of view, or someone who has a marketing background.

I’ve seen my name come up in this thread quite a bit, all in good light, and that makes me feel good in return; not because I want the kudos, but because it means my efforts are perhaps in the right direction. I am, and always will be, willing to shape TextBook in whatever way seems best, even open it up for other uses beyond what it was initially conceived to do. I don’t own TextBook, Dean Allen does, but he has given it to my care (officially he gave it to mine and Remilliard’s care) to grow in the way I see best. To me that means listening to the community for new directions (which I have done and do), providing coordination for use (which I have done and do), and strive for more community contributions (which I have done and do, seemingly in vain).

As it turns out, I’m spread pretty thin right now. In addition to my many online activities, I’ve also taken on heavy French language training and wife and I are expecting a baby in two months so my time is only going to get slimmer. Hence, I want to squash any notions right now of more extracurricular work on my part, unless our CEO wants to pay for it. I will continue to focus on TextBook as I have, and I feel pretty good with having hakjoon in the mix on that. Maybe he can even take over new accounts for a while. We also have a growing team of translators, andreas on graphics (right andreas?), and david_1cog lending a hand with the skins. I wouldn’t mind seeing a team of dedicated writers evolve for TextBook, if that’s what people wanted. Money has been talked of before, maybe that’s the incentive, but where would it come from? Maybe there’s something to this marketing thing after all.

If I had more time, I would do things like get the Site Administration content produced and up to date so I can link other articles I’m working on at wion (like the Building Block series for newcomers) to relevant sections of TextBook in context, without a reader ending up at an empty TextBook page or one full of blank paragraphs. As it is now TextBook is full of holes that could have easily been filled ages ago from a sentence contribution here and there by many people. I think all of us get so caught up in thinking about the cutting edge, we forget about the fundamentals, the newbies that will come and just want to know where the custom fields are located, for example.

The idea of distributed information seems to have two camps as well; some think all the distributed information and Web sites around the world is fine, and that all we need is another portal to point to it. Others would like to see things consolidated a bit. My inclination is to see things consolidated a bit, but that’s old news and people will do what they want to do.

We do have a portal of sorts, the TxP Resources site, which seems to hav slipped into neglect, or forgetfulness…wasn’t there a redesign due on that some time ago? I’ve been hearing about a plugins database. Why not make the Resources site strictly a plugins repository (and change the name accordingly). I mean think about it: all the templates should be going to TextGarden, and all the tips/tricks and tutorials should really be in the FAQs or TextBook accordingly, the two centralized bodies for documentation. What does that leave the Resources site for? Plugins is the clear answer. It could be the killer plugin resource if that was the sole focus; maybe even include something like the plugin selector process I proposed once (note it’s titled for Tags but the idea changed to plugins) or something similar. (But that’s more writing of sorts, I know.)

Besides, if people (as suggested already) want to redo textpattern.com into a new improved portal to the rest of the TxP world, then wouldn’t that make the Resources site kind of obsolete or redundant (except for the plugins)? My nod would be to dismantle the frigate before it sinks and trick-out the mothership. (I’ve said it before, I never liked those side columns at textpattern.com…lame and unfriendly.)

zem · 2006-02-27 23:56:08

1. Action : Extend the project Team to other areas than development => Why : Allocate resources more efficiently, allow dev team to focus on dev work

2. Action : Create a project team board on the forums => Why : Coordinate efforts between Textpattern’s contributors, Help contributors to have a clear view of development process (which in turn means they can communicate with the community).

3. Action : Have a montly users mailing list newsletter => Why : Give users an overview of what gets done and what is planned (not talking roadmap here, but general orientations).

Once again, these are solutions looking for problems. I still haven’t heard anyone suggest an actual problem or goal.

The whole “back on track” push seems to begin with a desired solution (implementing a government or beauracracy or similar), and then seek out ideas and explanations to justify it. That’s backwards. Can someone please explain what the problem is, without jumping to conclusions first?

I’m more than happy to encourage community contributions. If organizing helps, then organize. Like I said, or tried to say, my criticism is not for the many volunteers who contribute to Textpattern.

The reason I’m concerned is that many of the suggestions here seem counterproductive to what ought to be the real goal: getting things done. They aren’t coming from an angle like, “I’m trying to do xyz and I can’t without forming a team”. If that is the reality, then by all means, go ahead. Don’t waste valuable time waiting for anyone’s permission or approval, just do it. If you need a forum or a mailing list, all you have to do is ask.

Instead, the subtext of some posts to this and similar threads seems to be “people aren’t doing what I want, or working fast enough, so let’s form a committee to order them around”. There – and only there – is where my criticism is aimed. That is not a community. To repeat myself: volunteering is something you do, not something you do to someone else.

Last edited by zem (2006-02-28 00:18:34)

zem · 2006-02-28 00:00:24

> Just because we are core developers for textpattern doesn’t mean everything we ever do is owned by the public by default.

Ummmm… okay. Not to try to channel Richard Stallman or anything, but I guess your definition of a GPL open source project and mine kinda sorta differ.

The GPL is very clear on the fact that private modifications are private. That’s true for anyone who downloads and uses Textpattern; why should some developers be held to a different standard?

KurtRaschke · 2006-02-28 00:23:24

The GPL is very clear on the fact that private modifications are private. That’s true for anyone who downloads and uses Textpattern; why should some developers be held to a different standard?

I’m not saying that “some developers” should be held to a different standard.

I am, however, saying that useful modifications should be contributed back to the project.

I fully understand that people can and will make private modifications to Textpattern. That’s their right, and I see no need to interfere with that. If someone needs to hack TXP to fit a certain need, why shouldn’t they be able to?

On the other hand, I believe that if you’ve developed something useful for an open-source project, you should contribute it back. That’s just the way things work. And that applies to everyone—whether they’re a member of a recognized “development team” or not.

-Kurt

zem · 2006-02-28 00:42:31

I still haven’t heard anyone suggest an actual problem or goal.

Wait, I tell a lie. Here’s one:

TxP Resources site, which seems to hav slipped into neglect, or forgetfulness…wasn’t there a redesign due on that some time ago? I’ve been hearing about a plugins database. Why not make the Resources site strictly a plugins repository (and change the name accordingly).

Textpattern Resources has a we need you page:

Everyone’s assistance is requested to help keep this site as complete, updated, and accurate as possible. Do not hesitate to log in and make changes on your own, or to send an email to notify the admin of even the smallest errors.

There you have it. The solution is already there. The site is already built, full of content, and ready for contributions. Don’t throw it away, go help Alicson. She could use the help.

neutrino · 2006-02-28 01:06:34

> zem wrote:

There you have it. The solution is already there. The site is already built, full of content, and ready for contributions. Don’t throw it away, go help Alicson. She could use the help.

I don’t think anyone suggested throwing it away but I would guess folks might be burnt out after the “redesign” fell apart. People wander away. SOMEONE (or BETTER) a GROUP (easy to get in and out of) should manage the comings and goings (ESPECIALLY OF TEXTPATTERN RESOURCES).

Zem, why don’t you go get her and bring her here instead of having us one by one go trasping off. (If we took you up on this suggestion we’d probably overwhelm Alicson. Is that your intent? I expect that if you invited her into the conversation (which BTW can’t we move it into a new thread—sure I know I could but I ain’t got no followers, you do.) she might come. I haven’t seen hide nor hair of her ‘round these parts for about 4 months (hmmmm).

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#181 2006-02-27 18:47:25

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#182 2006-02-27 18:49:36

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#183 2006-02-27 18:51:07

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#184 2006-02-27 18:56:44

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#185 2006-02-27 20:27:06

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#186 2006-02-27 23:16:55

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#187 2006-02-27 23:54:17

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#188 2006-02-27 23:56:08

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#189 2006-02-28 00:00:24

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#190 2006-02-28 00:23:24

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#191 2006-02-28 00:42:31

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#192 2006-02-28 01:06:34

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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