[wiki] Wiki Progression

datorhaexa · 2010-11-30 19:25:20

Alrighty. Let me explain why I did what I did on that snippet of an image above. Before I do, though, I must say that I am with Destry on much of what he’s written.

I have not removed the search but re-located it as I was, in this case, using the themes site as an example. As Destry mentioned, each site has different contents and needs. I doubt that search will be used as often on the main TXP site or the themes site (where there is no useful search criteria and where categories and types of themes — frontent, backend, free, pay-for, etc are more useful methods ) as it is on the forum and wiki. In this sense, where search sits should depend on the use and thus my question about it.

(By the way, there’s some strange down-pointing arrow appears on the left “View by popularity” link on Textgarden.)

Tag line.. I don’t know. How useful is a tag line on top of the site? Would this in any way be useful or convincing to me as a new user, because as a regular it isn’t. I know I’m going hardcore practical, but I just throw my thoughts in.

This has already been said — double-line navigation elements make me not read them; the only way I navigate is through learned positions of things. And the things I actually use are all in the (bottom) left navigation on both the themes and main site. On top there’s like a lot of space of things I don’t need and therefore (try to) ignore.

Those are my use habits. I have no idea how a newbie would be using the site, or other regulars for that matter, but that’s my proverbial two cents.

hcgtv · 2010-11-30 19:29:37

thebombsite wrote:

I have also added a drop-down for those sites which are not part of the, for want of a better word, “official” network.

Stuart, could you change the link from PHPXref to phpCrossRef? I’m in the process of getting everything switched over to the new domains, should be up and live with Textpattern running the front end real soon. Gracias.

thebombsite · 2010-11-30 21:01:41

Done. :)

Destry · 2010-12-04 18:15:32

Sorry guys. For whatever reason I only get the occasional forum notification for the various threads I’m subscribed to. This forum really needs an overhaul, I think. In any case, I’ve also been distracted with organizing CS Forum 2011, working on a bilingual site, preparing a relaunch of my own site, and running the gauntlet of French administration to setup a consultancy business. I’m a little busy.

I’ve be catching up with the discussion and it looks like we’re getting somewhere. I’d also like to say I really appreciate Stuart joining the conversation and making efforts he’s already done. That means a lot.

Before I give my two cents at this point, I think we need to have a single way of talking about the common nav links (Plugins, Docs, Forum, Blog, Themes…), because it’s getting a little confusing. I propose we use Textpattern Bar. I say “bar” instead of navigation or menu because it means the entire div element that the menu is contained in, including (in the case of the wiki at the moment) the Txp logo. This means even though some of the mockups show it as a “Network” (and we’ve talked about it before as the “family of links”), we still refer to it as the Textpattern Bar (or Txp Bar).

Okay, moving on…

While I see what Stuart is doing by creating a separate Txp bar for TextGarden, no doubt because that’s preferred over moving TxG’s main nav items to the left column, I think it burdens the masthead with too many main nav-looking links. Separating out those Txp bar links is certainly a step in the right direction, but I think it could be done better.

In that respect, I like the direction Ralitza’s concept is headed. If you’re going to use a double nav bar design like TxG does in the masthead, this is a cleaner way of doing it. Basically, it shows that we don’t need taglines, and the search for a given site can be moved down.

I like the idea of taglines, to be honest, and do think they have the potential to connect with visitors, but if the tagline/search bar is dropped it should not be a big deal if the result is a more informative and usable masthead.

thebombsite wrote:

I quite like Robert’s latest contribution.

I love that tagline. .com should put it in now, for the long or short term, it matters not.

Els wrote:

I haven’t thought about how Textbook would look with this, it’s a bit different from Textgarden or the .com site. Destry?

While a double nav bar masthead could be the solution for TextGarden (if Stuart doesn’t want to make any other changes), there’s no need to put a Txp bar in the wiki like TxG has, because it’s already there and the wiki’s main nav is the left column.

This might be where we can’t, in fact, have a common Textpattern bar design for all sites because it simply depends on where a given’s site’s own navigation resides. The wiki’s is the left column, so the Txp bar aligns with the Txp logo (which conveys more about the significane of those links, IMO). TxG chooses to have a horizontal main nav, so it needs to put the Txp bar at the top. (I still think TxG’s hijacking of the Txp logo is a bad idea, and reason enough to make the change.)

As far as I’m concerned, consistency in the links in the Txp bar is more important than how the bar is designed or positioned, though ideally you’d want to have both.

hcgtv wrote:

When we worked out the top navigation menu while I was working with Nucleus CMS, we decided that the top nav should be hosted at the main .com site. Every other site would just include it into their scheme, that way the top nav would be consistent throughout the sites, and the main site controlled it.

While I can appreciate this idea, I think history has shown that the “main .com site” has no interest in such control or consistency outside .com, or it would have taken that into account when the design for .com was done. The idea of a common Txp bar of sorts was proposed even bore Squareeye created his wireframes.

Regardless, it’s beginning to look like we may not be able to have a single solution anyway, but if .com wanted to do that now for, say, TxG’s double nav concept, go for it.

I’ll come back and address what Stuart thinks are my design flaws because that has relevance in this too. He brings up good arguments, but they’re not well-reasoned. :)

Bloke · 2010-12-04 19:26:50

Destry wrote:

it’s beginning to look like we may not be able to have a single solution anyway

On this topic I put some time in with Stuart earlier this week to hammer out a centralised Textpattern bar. It works, and it works pretty well. After much to-ing and fro-ing we settled on simply providing the markup (a nested <ul>) in the central location, plus javascript to handle the dropdown, but left all CSS to the local sites so it can fit in with the current styling for now and be easily changed. This does also mean that — even though a central logo is available for the left hand side — the sites are under no obligation to use it since it’s a CSS background element. However, it would be strongly advised to use the central one as and when a suitable logo can be ultimately decided.

On a technical level I used the awesome rah_external_output to squirt the bar contents from a central TXP site. The destination (client) site currently requires a single line of PHP to read in the contents (or, if the file_get_contents() function isn’t available on the client then it’s about 5 lines of Curl instead). Whether the bar is hosted on .com or hosted on another site in the family is down to whether we’re comfortable running rah_external_output and a bunch of my hacky code on our main site. No doubt the code could be improved anyway. That’s a decision that can be made later.

However, this seeming nirvana has a downside: availability. Should the central site be put in maintenance mode or go down for whatever reason, the client sites will either show the 503/404/403 message in the place of the network bar, or an error message. We managed to suppress the errors so if something goes wrong at least you just get no bar instead of yukky errors, but the problem of maintenance mode/unavailability is still under ongoing investigation. It may be that the bar should be a completely separate (as in not under rah_external_output) control so it is independent of the site’s 503 status. Then we’re only left with what if the domain/server itself goes down.

It might end up that it’s simply not feasible to offer this centrally. But I thought I’d just mention the fact that we’re trying because it’s quite handy to be able to control the content from a central place and simply farm out the look to the client sites. The ultimate separation of content/presentation :-) If anyone has anything to add on this topic then I’m listening!

Last edited by Bloke (2010-12-04 19:30:59)

Destry · 2010-12-05 22:07:40

I just want to address what Stuart thought were my “flaws”, because it depends on how zoomed in or out one is when looking at the picture. I’m zoomed out. I’m looking at a bigger picture. I think Stuart is zoomed in, looking at things from the perspective of TxG.

thebombsite wrote:

…the “blue block” [.com’s current search bar] is actually a part of the site…yet it has been separated from the site [in Destry’s concepts]. It should be below the [Txp bar] not above it.

When I look at how it’s used at either .com or the wiki currently, I don’t think I see a problem, actually.

When people visit a site they expect the top nav to take them somewhere within the site not somewhere else. I think it will be confusing. You are making the [Txp bar] the primary and relegating what should be primary to the sidebar. I don’t think that is good practice.

There are actually two good discussion points there. One with respect to external links, and the other with the location of the main nav. Either way, if you look at this from the perspective of your individual site, you’re not looking at it from the perspective I’m arguing about.

My concepts represent a model that considers all Txp resources (.com, .org, .net, themes — essentially those graciously adopted/hosted by Dean in the early days) to be thought of as a single entity, a single site, if you will. All you have to do is imagine that docs, themes, forum, etc were just sections in the .com site. The only difference is that each resource has it’s own URL instead of being treated like a subdirectory (though you could put aliases on all these if you wanted; e.g, textpattern.net/wiki → docs.textpattern.com, etc.), but that’s trivial in terms of the IA. Under this model, which I think is a better model for a number of reasons, there’s no flaw with the concepts I proposed from an architecture standpoint.

If you’re looking at it from a territorial standpoint—your TxG turf—then yeah…it’s probably hard to see beyond your own site’s structure.

With regard to the location of a primary navigation, conventions are guidelines at best, not the ten commandments of the web. If the links to the principle sections of an individual site are designed as vertical menus instead of horizontal menus, it doesn’t really matter as long as the intended architecture is clear and serving the intended objectives (the model I described above, from my perspective). In fact, there are many websites online where the main nav is in the side column. We’ve all seen them and know that’s possible. The wiki is a good example, but many non-wiki websites use layouts like that too.

…the network nav does not need a “Blog” entry. It is [.com’s blog] and there is a link to Textpattern in the [Txp bar]. It’s simply doubling up.

This is another fair point, but it’s another question of content and architecture more than a design flaw. It’s also another example (like FAQs) where .com’s content suffers. The occasional post about the next release (and Stef’s posts are a joy to read, mind you) are just the tip of the ice berg of what could be rolling there. The .com blog is underutilized and for that reason it’s fair to determine if it should come out of the main Txp bar for everyone.

Ideally, however, that blog would be the Daily Bugle for everything Textpattern, and if it was, it would deserve to sit right where it is in a common Txp bar. Someone from the community with a penchant for blogging regularly about community happenings should be recruited as .com’s blog Editor. I could easily imagine bringing in more TXP MAG-type content in the blog channel. That would be refreshing, actually.

I think the problem in this case is that TxG also has it’s own blog (the only sub-site that does), so you’re competing with mother. In fact, what is it that TxG blogs about that couldn’t be blogged at .com? Doing that would strengthen the relationship between .com and TxG, make .com’s blogging more interesting, and make this issue of having a blog link (or not) a moot point. Seems like a smart move all around.

…neither Textpattern nor Textgarden need that extra “yellowish” bar. TextBook and maybe Resources have a use for it but it has no place on the other 2 sites. …what happened to the logo? I love the logos on textpattern and textgarden and I can’t see why you can’t have logos made up for textbook and resources.

(I’ve combined your three and four points because my response addresses both.)

Textpattern.com doesn’t need the Identity bar, no. And that’s never been my argument. My argument all along has been that the sub-sites try and accommodate a Txp bar in relation to .com, and that maybe .com changes a couple of it’s main menu link destinations in return to support the consistent aims. But as far as .com’s design/layout goes, it’s already established, and we all know that.

TxG, on the other hand, is essentially a rip-off of .com’s design, right down to hijacking the logo, and duplicating much of its fluff content (e.g., left column stuff). I know that sounds a bit harsh, and I’m not saying Stuart is a design thief, but on the surface the design is what it is — a clone. It’s one thing to adopt a style guide (how font’s look, etc.), but it’s a whole different ball game to completely clone the structure and design. That doesn’t serve .com or TxG very well. (This harks back to what I’ve written about already; that a site’s design should follow its own unique content, not inversely shoehorn the content into a bad fitting design.)

What you’ve done with the Txp’s logo (and the rest of the design) would be copyright infringement in the rest of the world, and while that may not be the case here in the Txp community in terms of rights of use of community contributions, it still looks that way on the surface. I’d be curious to hear what self-respecting graphic designers would think about the logo use, specifically, because admittedly I’m not a graphic designer.

Further, I would argue that a main menu that looks exactly like another site’s but consists of different links is more confusing to people versus where the main menu is actually located (vertical or horizontal). Yet this is exactly what TxG does. Mimicking the logo (making it look like it’s TxG’s logo) doesn’t help. I’ve seen two people in this thread (besides myself) say they’ve been confused in TxG before because it’s so .com-ish. Thus, cloning .com’s design, duplicating some of it’s content, and swapping out the links in the main nave for local use has already proven to be a bad way to go.

I would wager that if TxG at least cleared out all the left column content that’s redundant with .com, you would find it suitable for putting a vertical main menu in the left column, and it wouldn’t be confusing at all. Especially if that was the only thing there (or at least the only list of links there at top of the column).

As for the login stuff on the other side of the identity bar, TxG might not need it now, but I could easily imagine a future evolution where TxG provides themers with their own accounts in the site so they could upload their own themes (without a middle man), maintain designer profiles, etc. Especially when theming becomes more integrated in Txp. In such a case, the identity bar would accommodate that login/logout dialog at the later date without any further rethinking of the design and/or layout.

As it stands, we see the identity thing differently. I see the sites in question as sections in .com, but which works by having a common lateral nav system, individual sub-site identity, no redundant content at all… essentially an integrated architecture supporting a unified strategy of communication. TxG wants to be top level (above .com), but yet redundantly publishes .com’s content and clones .com’s design. I don’t see the logic there. I’d say my concept is less flawed than the path TxG has taken. But maybe I’m biased too. :)

Bloke wrote:

I put some time in with Stuart earlier this week to hammer out a centralised Textpattern bar… If anyone has anything to add on this topic then I’m listening!

I have nothing against this idea, as I’ve indicated before. I’m even surprised you guys have gone this far with it. That’s great, and I hope Stuart doesn’t get discouraged with my post here. But clearly a centralised bar needs to make sense for all sites using it, and I don’t think we’re there yet.

Even if we don’t use a centralised bar, we should at least get closer to an acceptable concept that we can distributively support through collaboration and commitment.

Also, if a centralised bar is to be a reality and housed at .com, I would think .com needs to change a few main nav links for sure as a return show of commitment to the common goal of a Txp bar. In other words, the bar the sub-sites use is pretty much the main nav of .com, with the exception of how the Txp bar might handle a home link to .com (which would be dependent on how the Txp logo is handled in sub-sites, presumably).

datorhaexa · 2010-12-08 15:06:14

Nothing to object in what Destry has written, I only want to make one comment about style.

To me, at least, TXP over the years has, either on purpose or organically, acquired a peculiar visual style that one .. well ok…I recognize. I don’t necessarily need to see the logo to recognise it. And this, I think, can be used to great effect in creating the connection between the sibling sites — not through a logo but through an aesthetic. This will allow sites to have their own face but visibly belong to the same “school” of thought.

This turned very zen, but you know what I mean.

Destry · 2010-12-09 09:40:49

I made a few more style updates to the wiki (such as the side-column nav styles; really helps reduce the blue links monotony in the wiki), and I went ahead and implemented the Txp bar concept I’ve been talking about. It’s not cast in stone, but a working example helps put things in perspective. (I also think it’s pretty darn usable/feasible, which was the whole point.)

Some notes on the Txp bar menu/links:

I took the liberty of not making the list items in the Txp bar a fixed width, but rather a width respective to the actual text label. This is simply to be more economical with vertical space, and since I’m not using the extra fluff on labels, it looks decent.
In relation to space, as well redundancy, I opted to use just “TXP” for the link to Textpattern.
I changed the left-to-right order of links, moving “Themes” after “Plugins”, which seems more logical as two applied resources.
I’ve retained the “Blog” link for the time being, but I’m not married to it.
I like the idea of adding the “More” dropdown in last position, which I’m happy to do in next iteration (just need the code).
All links have titles attributes to help clarify destinations.

(Bloke: you should find all this to be useful in Plugins, and maybe be able to stick with the grid alignments in that case; even with the wide left column.)

There are a few color changes to note:

The tagline, as Stuart interpreted it in TxG, was not meant to be so dark. I intentionally kept it closer to the blue background tone in my mockups to downplay it in the UI. People will see it regardless, so it doesn’t have to be so bold as to compete with more important actions. Plus, being too dark, it will just add to the heaviness of the masthead. In case anybody cares, the color I’m currently using in the wiki is #beccd8. (I’ve marked it up as a blockquote.)
I kept the active state background color in the Txp bar (in this case “Docs”) the same as the Identity bar background. This is a logical visual cue that says “Docs” is associated to “TextBook”. I noted afterwards that this also makes a nice contrast when you’re hovering over a link on either side of the active state link. You wouldn’t need this for .com, obviously, but for purposes of a sub-site, it works good for the site association.
Similar to #2, I made the active state font color of “Docs” and the “Login/Logout” functions the same gold-ish as the “TextBook” label. Again, this is a visual cue to show all of these links are associated to the current site. (It also helps reduce the monotony of blue links, particularly in the wiki, but that’s a side benefit.)

Lastly, I used just the Textpattern marque (the logo without the embedded name). The word “Textpattern” is all over the wiki homepage, and likely the homepages of all other sites, so no mother identity is lost, IMO. In fact, the removal of the embedded text contributes to the lightening up of the masthead overall (fewer elements distracting the eyes).

I have some more style tweaks to make (on fonts, etc.), but that’s next time.

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Textpattern CMS support forum

#37 2010-11-30 19:25:20

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#38 2010-11-30 19:29:37

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#39 2010-11-30 21:01:41

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#40 2010-12-04 18:15:32

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#41 2010-12-04 19:26:50

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#42 2010-12-05 22:07:40

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#43 2010-12-08 15:06:14

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

#44 2010-12-09 09:40:49

Re: [wiki] Wiki Progression

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