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#21 2006-02-23 04:09:19

michaelkpate
Moderator
From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 556
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Without meaning to pile on the developers (who I think have done a fantastic job), this thread is a good example. I have seen this more than once: someone identifies a need, articulates that need, and either gets ignored (which is logical due to the amount of traffic and lack of moderators) or simply can’t convince a dev that their need has any merit (even if they submit their own patch). I am not saying that every need is worth development time, but it seems like hoping that “one of the devs needs a feature for a client project” means anything anyone wants is going to be a kind of longshot. After two years, some of have grown to accept that but not really embrace it.

I have had idol fantasies of forking the codebase more than once… definitely not something I want to do (since I don’t really know how), but…

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#22 2006-02-23 04:45:51

zem
Developer emeritus
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-04-08
Posts: 2,579
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

simply can’t convince a dev that their need has any merit

It’s not a matter of convincing the developers of its merit. It’s a matter of convincing the developers that they ought to spend hours, weeks or months working without pay to build something, simply because someone else says they need it.

The core developers aren’t any different to anyone else on the forum in that respect. They don’t get paid to spend time here, fix bugs, troubleshoot problems, write documentation, comply with feature requests, or release new versions. We all do that in our own time.

So by all means discuss, come up with new ideas, contribute, and so on. That’s great, we could use the help. But please, when you’re talking about what someone should do, or what someone hasn’t done, remember that volunteering is supposed to be something you do, not something you do to someone else.


Alex
tstate

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#23 2006-02-23 07:21:23

wet
Developer
From: Lenzing, Austria
Registered: 2005-06-06
Posts: 3,108
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Assumptions:

  1. Textpattern needs contributions in various fields: From developers, technical writers, designers. So it has to be made more attractive for them.
  2. The amount of contributions is rooted in popularity and the number of people involved.
  3. Becoming popular requires incentives. Money is one of the most powerful incentive mankind has invented.
  4. Textpattern is a viable playground for developers und web professionals.
  5. Textpattern is a desert for visual designers.
  6. Textpattern’s default theme is dead ugly while even Wordpress’s default theme is satisfactory for a number of blogs (we’ve all seen enough evidence for that). New users want to change it in the minute they have finished installing.
  7. There are literally thousands of Wordpress themes to choose from, free and paid. And they are easily installed, so one could even “dress for the moment”.
  8. Designers do make money by building Wordpress themes. They are enabled to do so because Wordpress provides an infrastructure for the deployment of themes which is dedicated to the end user. No developer required. No 99 steps of instructions leading one through a complicated sequence of copy&pasting forms, pages and styles.

Conclusion:

If I had to name one thing of which I thought it would push Textpatterns popularity most I’d name a proper theme manager. No nested sections, no elements, no elaborate permission system. No admin facelift.

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#24 2006-02-23 07:29:44

hcgtv
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From: Charlotte, NC
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,154
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Michael, you fork the code by just announcing the new project, then hope for volunteers.

zem, is it true that you ‘have grown increasingly concerned about TXP’s future’?

wet, yes TXP needs a proper theme manager, that’s why I’m still running the default look.


txp:tag – Textpattern Tags ~ TxPlanet – Textpattern Planet

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#25 2006-02-23 07:38:34

wet
Developer
From: Lenzing, Austria
Registered: 2005-06-06
Posts: 3,108
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

> hcgtv wrote:

> Michael, you fork the code by just announcing the new project, then hope for volunteers.

TextPatern ;-)

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#26 2006-02-23 07:59:27

hcgtv
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From: Charlotte, NC
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,154
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

wet wrote:
TextPatern ;-)

My vote’s on TextNuke :)


txp:tag – Textpattern Tags ~ TxPlanet – Textpattern Planet

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#27 2006-02-23 10:11:22

Jeremie
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From: Provence, France
Registered: 2004-08-11
Posts: 1,578
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

hcgtv wrote:
My vote’s on TextNuke :)

Not fun, I’m having a heart attack right now :-\

On the Theme Engine thing, there’s a forum and threads to talk about it. There are number of issues that you and I can fix before the dev team work on it.

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#28 2006-02-23 10:46:31

hcgtv
Member
From: Charlotte, NC
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,154
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Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

Jeremie,

I read the forum posts, which led me to the wiki page that zem wrote about Themes. I’m so new to TXP, don’t know what I could add, maybe my experience with other systems?


txp:tag – Textpattern Tags ~ TxPlanet – Textpattern Planet

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#29 2006-02-23 11:02:35

davidm
Member
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2004-04-27
Posts: 719

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

<em>oops, once again a long post, I missed those funny remarks guys… yeah TextNuke => lol Certainly not… </em>

hakjoon wrote: I definitely agree with the thoughts behind this initiative and I see it as a testimony to how much the users care about TXP, so count me as a 4th person running amuck :)
I didn’t want the valid issues that are being brought up sidetracked because I didn’t chose my words correctly.

Thanks for the support :) and further clarification.
And also for the FreshlyPressed example, nice one which I missed…

neutrino wrote: I’ve seen a hundred great ideas (like the plugin respository and the redesign of the resources site) but there seems to be a general lack of cohesiveness in direction (I’m totally guilty here, myself—I drop in and out) both to the software and to the communal effort. (…)What’s my point? A suggestion perhaps. Some one thing should tie TXP together for the uninitiated. (…) I am glad you all brought this up—it was a vague icky feeling (especially after Mary left and now appears as that cat that doesn’t quite trust the food being offered (hi Mary)) but now feels like there’s hope (or at least a diagnosis) again. Very cool, txpERT. Of course, some of it really is work for all of us (the HUD auditors have been in my office for weeks).

Other food for thought here, nice ideas. It’s exactly the kind of dynamics we need to make things move forward.
About the icky feeling : when we started worrying about the situation (which was like 6/8 months ago in my case), we started discussing with fellow textpatterners what their feeling was and we got many people reporting the same feeling. Mary’s leaving sure did help us taking the leap and launching a debate about it. We had a few contacts, did a lot of talking because we knew it would not be easy bringing this up. For me it was a matter of either doing this or simply dropping out of the community, which I more or less have those past 3 months…

TheEric wrote: Hmm. This particular subject has come up many times in regards to Textpattern. I don’t think it’s something that is ever going to change… At least, not under the Textpattern name.

A lot of people seem to think the same. When we discussed all this, many had no hope of making things moving, some said everything was OK with the project (but it depends what you expect of it, of course).

A lot projects in similar situation generated a fork. Etomite is a good example, the main dev left and things started lacking cohesion and purpose. At some point, a bunch of dev having worked on an Etomite mod (MODx) got tired of nothing happening (mainly, the new dev team was bug fixing and little more) and just forked. It gave birth to MODx CMS, which know is far better than its elder brother. It happens, it’s part of opensource communities life cycle. But don’t get me wrong : not every fork is a success or even a good decision, and by far.

This being said, we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t think the community had the resource to make things better :)
The first feedback just shows how much people care about this project and that given proper guidance, they are willing to contribute and put in extra time and effort.

hcgtv wrote: zem, is it true that you ‘have grown increasingly concerned about TXP’s future’?

hcgtv, this bit of text was collectively written by Alex, Nils and I, and once again the dev team had nothing to do with writing this statement… let’s make that perfectly clear.

zem wrote: It’s not a matter of convincing the developers of its merit. It’s a matter of convincing the developers that they ought to spend hours, weeks or months working without pay to build something, simply because someone else says they need it. The core developers aren’t any different to anyone else on the forum in that respect. They don’t get paid to spend time here, fix bugs, troubleshoot problems, write documentation, comply with feature requests, or release new versions. We all do that in our own time. So by all means discuss, come up with new ideas, contribute, and so on.

As I said above, I don’t think this reasonning can work with opensource development. Otherwise, why not just code it and sell it ? The whole point of the opensource thing is feeding from user’s suggestions to make the app more usable, user-oriented and thus often better than the commercial competition. Same goes for designers input, as I said, as far as accessiblity, templating or hunt for hardcoded styles in the code. Also same goes for plugin writers, adding features and expandability to your software. Not to mention bug reports.

The better textpattern is, the more likely you’ll sell your services using it ! It’s not like there is no competition here, let’s remember that. And I’ll repeat myself but in the case of Textpattern, let’s remember Dean had a philosophy, a vision when he launched it. Lots of it being user and designer oriented. Read textpattern.com again !

zem wrote: That’s great, we could use the help. But please, when you’re talking about what someone should do, or what someone hasn’t done,
remember that volunteering is supposed to be something you do, not something you do to someone else.

Volunteering is most definitely somehting you do, we agree.

But people won’t do it for its own sake and self declare themselves volonteering for something if they don’t where they go and where they stand. Like anything team related, nobody will do anything if you don’t set goals, roles and responsibilities.

Last edited by davidm (2006-02-23 11:25:25)


.: Retired :.

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#30 2006-02-23 11:23:22

steventer
Member
Registered: 2004-12-03
Posts: 56

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

To my eyes, the inevitable conclusion of this thread will be the announcement of a fork. Do it already. Let the users decide where they want to go with the code. I’m sure there’ll be enough volunteers among the plugin developers.

PS Let’s call it “Textplatter”: serve your content up any way you please :)

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