How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

michaelkpate · 2011-02-11 17:44:54

http://www.majordojo.com/2011/02/how-did-wordpress-win.php

For those of you who don’t know, Byrne Reese is a long-time member of the Movable Type community and a former employee of Six Apart. So he was there for most of what he writes about.

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

Last edited by jsoo (2011-02-11 20:54:16)

hcgtv · 2011-02-12 15:17:10

All’s fair in love and war:

One thing rarely cited by the outside world, probably because it was not visible or apparent to anyone, was the systematic targeting of high profile brands to switch from using any competing platform to using WordPress. In fact, in the four years I was at Six Apart, if I had a dollar every time a significant and loyal TypePad and Movable Type customer confided in me that an employee of Automattic cold called them to encourage and entice them to switch to WordPress I would have quit a rich man. Automattic would extend whatever services it could, at no expense to the customer, getting them to switch. They would give away hosting services. They would freely dedicate engineers to the task of migrating customers’ data from one system to another. They would do whatever it took to move people to WordPress.

What I always fail to understand is why we, the devs and the community, walk on eggshells when we talk about WordPress on this forum. Yet, it’s evident, that Automattic did everything in their power to further their platform.

WordPress has huge security issues, it’s a mess of system once you start installing a myriad of plugins, yet we’re not pointing this out anywhere in the Textpattern world. Their templating system is archaic, forcing you to learn PHP, while we have elegant template tags, again, where is this highlighted?

WordPress is the big dog in the fight, where are the ornery chihuahuas on our team?

jsoo · 2011-02-12 15:36:11

Unleash your inner attack chihuahua; win iPod.

byrnereese · 2011-02-15 09:34:08

hcgtv wrote:

What I always fail to understand is why we, the devs and the community, walk on eggshells when we talk about WordPress on this forum. Yet, it’s evident, that Automattic did everything in their power to further their platform.

My name is Byrne. I wrote the article in question and thought I might chime in. As you might guess I am not a TextPattern user, but I know many and respect them all. This is also my first visit to this forum. So please take all that I say with that in mind.

When it comes to answering the question about “walking on eggshells” however, I sense a commonality amongst us all. The question in my mind has nothing to do with the technical merit of any claim on can make against a competitor. When it comes to security for example, we could always pick a fight with WordPress, and we might even “win” or least mount a compelling argument for our respective platforms.

Perhaps though we choose not to engage because the debate has been played out many times before. All sides in that “fight” have their talking points. Competitors cite routine and high profile exploits, reasons and rationale for fundamentally insecure code, etc, etc, etc. The other side points to software that is out of date, and also the fact that WordPress is such a large target for exploits given its massive install base.

Perhaps we choose not to engage because who on Earth are we trying to convince? Most of the time we are just preaching to the converted.

The point in my mind is ultimately about the core values and culture of the community. How we position ourselves against the competition and how we address the competition defines us just as much as our products do. The Movable Type community for example, by and large chooses not to engage, antagonize or enflame any debate about which platform is superior. We will state our opinions for sure, but we tend not to give credence or encourage behavior in our community that does not materially add to the debate. For example, you will be hard pressed to find a chorus of Movable Type fans joining a forum or discussion just to say, “Movable Type is the best, WordPress sucks.” They exist for sure, but not in large numbers. That is not because there are not a number of people who feel that way, but because it is not a behavior we have cultivated in our community.

I imagine the same can be said for TextPattern’s community. You “walk on egg shells” because you sense that to do the opposite would not curry favor amongst your peers.

The question then becomes what is the proper way for people to address the competition? Personally, I think it is through building a better product, and not a product that is better just on one axis (e.g. security), but on them all. And in the process, let’s encourage each other never to compromise on one thing that I am personally proud of: our community values of merit, respect, and openness.

jsoo · 2011-02-15 13:23:11

Byrne, thanks for stopping by, and adding to the cogent arguments you presented in your article. Naturally the Txp and MT projects have plenty of differences, but clearly WP remains the elephant in the room for both.

byrnereese wrote:

The question then becomes what is the proper way for people to address the competition? Personally, I think it is through building a better product, and not a product that is better just on one axis (e.g. security), but on them all. And in the process, let’s encourage each other never to compromise on one thing that I am personally proud of: our community values of merit, respect, and openness.

I couldn’t agree more.

In our case we also have some community rebuilding to do. While we don’t have a single “fiasco” to point to, there was a stretch where the development team alienated a lot of important contributors, resulting in a fork and a big loss to the community. We’ve managed to retain (or regain) our ethos of a positive and supportive community, but we have a lot of catching up to do.

hcgtv · 2011-02-17 17:48:21

byrnereese wrote:

When it comes to answering the question about “walking on eggshells” however, I sense a commonality amongst us all.

Hey Byrne, I’m tired of walking on eggshells when it comes to WordPress. I’m not seeking a job with Automattic (Alex Shiels), so I can say “WordPress Sucks!”, all day and night long. In my mind, the gloves are off.

jsoo wrote:

In our case we also have some community rebuilding to do. While we don’t have a single “fiasco” to point to, there was a stretch where the development team alienated a lot of important contributors, resulting in a fork and a big loss to the community.

From what I recall, the only loss to the community at the time was ruud hanging out on IRC with us xPats ;) Other than that, I don’t see any impacts that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Whoever was at xPattern, was there because they were not allowed into the exclusive country club of Textpattern, or just wanted to be excited about something.

The fork was officially launched on January 21, 2008, over 3 years ago. Did we learn anything from it? Have there been changes to address why the fork happened in the first place?

I imagine you’ll point out the call to everyone to help out on TXP5, which was posted on January 20, 2011, as indicative of the new Textpattern. But I don’t see a repository, a roadmap, a ticket system or anything else for that matter, other than a forum thread. Maybe everything is happening behind closed door IRC sessions, I bet you ruud is there also :)

It took xPattern a week to go live, the enthusiasm of the moment was not wasted. Maybe there’s something to be learned from that?

maverick · 2011-02-17 18:23:28

hcgtv wrote:

I’m tired of walking on eggshells when it comes to WordPress. I can say “WordPress Sucks!”, all day and night long. In my mind, the gloves are off.

imho –

In the rough and tumble world of business, it can be an effective strategy to define public perception of your competitor, and then define your product as a compelling alternative. Sounds like what WP semi-did with TP/MT.

Perception may not be fact based, but for many it is reality.

I have a friend who just moved from Expression Engine to WP. He was changing directions with his website and wanted something more simple. Easier to post to, easier to maintain, easier to customize (he never quite got EE’s templating), and easier (and quicker) to change the entire look of the site when the mood strikes.

He was already headed to WP when I found out and advocated for Txp. He gave Txp a quick once over, said it looked nice, but went with WP for now. His comments were along the lines of:

Lots of (more) templates.
Lots of (more) plugins.

There’s some truth to those points. Whether more = better is another discussion ;)

To give an idea: on Tuesday morning he hired a freelancer from Turkey to write a script and convert his EE database to WP. Two hours later the script was ready. Two hours after that the new database was ready. Tweaking the template took a few hours. By Saturday he had his new site customized and rolled out. All while working full time. He’s tickled.

I guess I see WordPress as a product. It’s got points for it. It’s got points against it. It’s just a choice. It pays the bills for some people. Super. I’m glad for them. Life’s too short to get angry and waste time attacking a code repository, or even their culture and community.

Instead, I’ll support products (Textpattern) that “connect” with me, advocate for them, and try not to take myself too seriously along the way :D

Last edited by maverick (2011-02-17 21:49:51)

maverick · 2011-02-17 18:28:36

hcgtv wrote:

I don’t see a repository,

Maybe the devs havent said more yet because the new core’s not installing properly. . . yet . . .? (At least for me)

But checkout your own copy to play with?

It took xPattern a week to go live, the enthusiasm of the moment was not wasted. Maybe there’s something to be learned from that?

There were/are several cool things about Xpattern. And in the moment, much got done. Several good people were/are involved. But moments pass, and you want something strong and vibrant remaining. Sustaining is always harder.

The fact that Txp is around, still changing, with a solid community, after all these years, challenges, and changes. That’s actually impressive, imo.

ruud · 2011-02-17 19:57:33

hcgtv wrote:

Maybe everything is happening behind closed door IRC sessions, I bet you ruud is there also :)

Nope.

michaelkpate · 2011-02-17 21:32:08

There were lots of factors but much of the success of WordPress was really all about timing. It was It’s About Time followed by Freedom 0 followed by WordPress 1.2. The next major development for Textpattern was months later and the moment had passed.

The other major factor was the drive Matt Mullenweg had to make it successful. From day one to now Matt has been at the center of everything. Textpattern development stalled out quite a bit when Dean stopped coming around. In stark contrast to Matt, Ben and Mena have said farewell and I am not sure what Dean is up to these days.

So while there are those who have found new toys to play with, there is still a lot of love out there. Textpattern still has a great deal of potential.

p.s. My own personal low point in the community, almost 5 years to the day.

Last edited by michaelkpate (2011-02-18 01:42:26)

hakjoon · 2011-02-18 01:53:50

I just lost two hours revisiting that old thread. Wow!

If I recall there are at least three more of those.

hcgtv · 2011-02-18 15:38:19

maverick wrote:

He was already headed to WP when I found out and advocated for Txp. He gave Txp a quick once over, said it looked nice, but went with WP for now. His comments were along the lines of:

Lots of (more) templates.

Lots of (more) plugins.

I truly believe if Textpattern had more templates to choose from, converted over from freely available XHTML designs or ported over from competing products (WordPress, Drupal, Joomla!), then more people would be inclined to try out Textpattern.

The fact that Txp is around, still changing, with a solid community, after all these years, challenges, and changes. That’s actually impressive, imo.

PHP-Nuke is still around also. ;)

michaelkpate wrote:

My own personal low point in the community, almost 5 years to the day.

Sad to read threads like that and realize that all we’ve ever done is talk about improving things.

This sums it up, from wet:

Alex Shiels said:
“Textpattern is driven by supply, not demand. The dev team members each write code for their own needs”.

So I guess it’s up to us to write code for our own needs, at least those that can code PHP, and forget about trying to effect change.

michaelkpate · 2011-02-18 16:18:49

hcgtv wrote:

I truly believe if Textpattern had more templates to choose from, converted over from freely available XHTML designs or ported over from competing products (WordPress, Drupal, Joomla!), then more people would be inclined to try out Textpattern.

I think the Textpattern community as a whole has always underestimated the laziness of the average person starting their own website. Although we have talked about it. In the meantime, I think you and Stuart had a great conversation about packaging designs. I think that gives us a starting point at least.

maverick wrote:

The fact that Txp is around, still changing, with a solid community, after all these years, challenges, and changes. That’s actually impressive, imo.

hcgtv wrote:

PHP-Nuke is still around also. ;)

Yeah, but Textpattern has documentation and people who will actually answer questions. I shudder to think how few of the 278,145 projects available on Sourceforge can say that.

hcgtv wrote:

So I guess it’s up to us to write code for our own needs, at least those that can code PHP, and forget about trying to effect change.

Just out of curiosity, and I apologize if this is available elsewhere, but what is/are your top issue/issues?

hcgtv · 2011-02-19 15:53:02

michaelkpate wrote:

I think the Textpattern community as a whole has always underestimated the laziness of the average person starting their own website. Although we have talked about it.

I’m taking Zem’s advice in that thread, “It’ll be ready when someone writes it. Simple as that.” Funny, I recall Zem showing us a screenshot of a template manager in the works, but it never saw the light, nor was the code introduced into the repository.

Just out of curiosity, and I apologize if this is available elsewhere, but what is/are your top issue/issues?

On 9/26/2010, I wrote an email to the mailing list entitled The Blogging Software Dilemma. That email drew 28 responses, more traffic to the mailing list than all of 2010 combined. The thread hit a nerve, with many people offering their time and custom mods to the core if Textpattern was on a source repository that was more conducive to outside developers.

For 5 years, all I’ve heard from the core devs is we code what we want or need, the reason for no roadmap, and there’s no money in Textpattern. Yet, there’s many of us outside the inner circle who would like to contribute to this project and are not interested if VC money is involved.

So I would say my biggest issue is the lack of leadership, vision and cojones.

Bloke · 2011-02-19 16:50:58

hcgtv wrote:

people offering their time and custom mods to the core if Textpattern was on a source repository that was more conducive to outside developers.

And TXP 5 is. ~~Bitbucket.org is the Mercurial tool for people to clone the master repo and publish their changes for us to merge in~~ EDIT: A better way is to clone the repo server-side on Google Code, make a local clone of that, work on it, push your changes to your server-side clone and then raise a pull request via a ticket. We’ll pull those changes to the core.

I’m out of the loop at the moment due to other (short-term) client commitments so Sam and Jeff are going to carry the torch for a few weeks. I’m sure you’ll hear more.

For 5 years, all I’ve heard from the core devs is we code what we want or need, the reason for no roadmap, and there’s no money in Textpattern.

I didn’t realise I’d whinged that much :-) Perhaps I’ll back off with the posts then, if that’s the impression I’m giving: maybe I should keep quiet so it can’t come back to haunt me in future?

On roadmaps:

If we post a roadmap and don’t stick to it due to illness or something then we’re lambasted for not meeting targets.
If we don’t post a roadmap we’re lambasted for having no vision.
If we post a roadmap and it doesn’t list the things people want the core to do (everyone has their own pet things the core should do, from automatic excerpting or contact forms, to a phpMyAdmin style tool for TXP database management) then we get lambasted for not listening.
That only leaves “post a roadmap and stick to it” which, when the above is taken into account, is something I certainly can’t guarantee, nor is it something I particularly desire to publish given the negative feedback it’ll attract. Might happen when we know more about what we can achieve under Spark/Plug and the impact it’s going to have on the current community, e.g. plugins compatibility.

For the record though, in case I’ve ever implied otherwise:

I’m trying to help build a light and breezy platform that enables others to build on it, without bloating the core with stuff that only 20% of users require. I can’t speak for what’s gone in before (comments, bleurgh) nor can I guarantee that the core will exactly meet your requirements, but I’m trying to help it meet most basic requirements. Templates is the stickiest part imo because of the way TXP was designed and is probably the reason it’s never been tackled in the core. But look at Escher, based on the same Framework as TXP 5 is adopting. It has one-click switchable themes out of the gate. It has a bunch of other markup helpers (markdown, Smarty, Textile, ..) and page cacheing built in. The list goes on. While I can’t say all this is going to be in v5.0.0 I can say that adopting the framework will allow us or plugin authors to do stuff that we simply cannot do now in 4.x, and a lot faster in future.
if it was about the money I’d have moved on a long time ago.

So I would say my biggest issue is the lack of leadership, vision and cojones.

Leadership: fine in principle. Find me some people in the community willing to give up their day job to the cause.
Vision: code is less than half the battle. Marketing is a large chunk of the rest. I opened up a challenge to write a post / tweet / article to say something positive about TXP in the wider world. In two weeks we’ve had one entry (it is very good!). Regardless if the iPod is a draw or not, if the community isn’t willing to help itself then we can code all day and make the best product in the world, it won’t make people flock to us without some marketing effort; and word of mouth is the best marketing one can get. Just look at Facebook where friends sell commercial products to other friends via the ‘Like’ button (and fwiw, I’ve already started the ball rolling after FB’s recent development announcements with an app on our own Facebook page to increase our presence there)
Cojones: the path of least resistance was for us to stick with the current code base. Rewriting it — and taking a shedload of heat in the process for that decision — seems pretty courageous. It’s not a decision we took lightly.

Last edited by Bloke (2011-02-20 20:42:28)

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#1 2011-02-11 17:44:54

How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#2 2011-02-12 15:17:10

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#3 2011-02-12 15:36:11

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#4 2011-02-15 09:34:08

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#5 2011-02-15 13:23:11

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#6 2011-02-17 17:48:21

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#7 2011-02-17 18:23:28

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#8 2011-02-17 18:28:36

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#9 2011-02-17 19:57:33

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#10 2011-02-17 21:32:08

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#11 2011-02-18 01:53:50

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#12 2011-02-18 15:38:19

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#13 2011-02-18 16:18:49

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#14 2011-02-19 15:53:02

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

#15 2011-02-19 16:50:58

Re: How did WordPress win? (against Movable Type)

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