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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
It’s a tough issue. A lot of Textpattern’s “early adopters”, as most early adopters of this sort of software are, were people who either designed and built websites professionally or as a serious hobby, and could be expected to be fairly knowledgeable and figure a lot of things out on their own or to read what little documentation existed and make sense of it.
Now, though, and I don’t mean to offend anyone with this, TXP is starting to be used by people who are coming at it from never having built a site before, or from only having used WYSIWYG editors or pre-built out-of-the-box systems. And Textpattern is neither WYSIWYG nor a “just take it out of the box” system (unless you like the default templates, that is, and I don’t know too many people who do), which creates a need for good, ultra-basic documentation.
And the docs just haven’t gotten there yet; the wiki, for example, is a great resource for developers, because its best and most thorough sections are the ones which are of interest to people who can quickly figure out how TXP works from clicking around in it, and just want things like a tag reference. A lot of this could be helped by a section in the wiki that just says “I’m new and don’t know anything about Textpattern, HTML or CSS, how do I do this?” And I’m as guilty as anyone for the absence of such a section, because I’ve had an account on the wiki forever and I’ve only ever contributed a couple things to it, most of which are almost certainly out of date by now.
So… new TextBook section for “clueless n00bs”, maybe? If we could get a couple of wiki authors together to write it, it could probably be done in a weekend or so. Who’s in?
You cooin’ with my bird?
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#14 2005-10-28 07:35:29
- Mary
- Sock Enthusiast
- Registered: 2004-06-27
- Posts: 6,236
Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
Wouldn’t really help, as I said elsewhere: people seem to be afraid of the wiki, so I don’t know that adding a new section would help any, except sit empty like some of the others. I’m hoping things like this will motivate more contributions. I think people get the idea that you have to submit a novel or comprehensive guide if they contribute anything at all, so we first gotta work on breaking these misconceptions.
I was actually planning on making a video tutorial series, but that fell apart when I discovered the only free tools that’ll let you do that are well… not very good. Pay for ones either look worse than the free, or they look great but are more than my wallet can handle at the moment.
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
<blockquote> Now, though, and I don’t mean to offend anyone with this, TXP is starting to be used by people who are coming at it from never having built a site before, or from only having used WYSIWYG editors or pre-built out-of-the-box systems.</blockquote>
Hey!!! This remembered me some text that was in textpattern.com/deanload/ and seems that it has been removed (when? why?)!
It was a nice “warning” message to scare newbies. It said something like this:
“For using this thing (TXP), you need skills in (X)HTML and CSS…”
or am I “sending fruit”? (“to send fruit”, “mandar fruta” in spanish (argentina), means… mmm… dont know how to translate it…)
Last edited by maniqui (2005-10-29 03:38:00)
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
I was pulling from SVN for a long time, so I don’t think I ever saw the message in deanload. It’s not a bad idea, though, to state up-front what people need to know to get the most out of TXP; it’s a great application, and light-years ahead of other CMS software in ease and flexibility, but you still need at least a passing familiarity with XHTML and CSS to use it effectively.
Mary: I see your point. But I do remember that once upon a time Remillard’s “TXP 101” was a great little series of articles that did a lot to help new folks learn their way around Textpattern. That’s really what I was thinking of with the “clueless n00b” documentation. I think some people are going to shy away from any documentation provided (you can lead a user to the answer, but you can’t make him think), though, and that’s frustrating to deal with. Some days I want to just go through the “How do I…” forum and answer everything with “stop now and hire a professional to deal with this for you”…
(In fact, the unofficial motto of a hosting company I do a lot of work with is “We deal with CPAN so you don’t have to”; a while back I proposed getting together a list of design and development professionals who were fluent with TXP, and that might be even more of a good idea today than it was then)
You cooin’ with my bird?
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
I think there were two big things being hovered over here: One was the more global issue of open-source documentation in general (interesting, but not immediately relevent). The other, and more worthwhile, is the state of documentation for Textpattern.
I would like everyone to think about how we can make TextBook better, in a no-holds barred way, and post your replies in here, TextBook Issues….
Basically we want to find what is wrong, how can we get TextBook back on track to being what it originally set out to do. It’s come a long way, but it’s only the foundation; like mary said, it needs walls.
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
Billdale, you need to include an executive summary with your posts — damn.
I think the textbook is actually a very good resource. There are actually a lot of good sources of information on textpattern. This forum for example is full of useful information. It just takes time to search through. It seems many people expect Textpattern to do everything for them. Creating a website takes work, no matter how fancy the tools you use are.
ubernostrum point is valid. I think many of the people using Textpattern initially were at least moderately tech-savvy. I know the ultimate goal of Textpattern is to be a CMS for everyone. I don’t think it is quite there yet — unless you are happy to leave everything default. With respect to NOOB users, I have to wonder why they are choosing Textpattern at all. Blogger is by far the easiest way to set up a blog. So for someone who is truly at a loss with Textpattern, I think Blogger is an excellent alternative. I don’t understand why people feel compelled to use something that is too difficult for them to use. What exactly do you gain by using Textpattern over using a service like Blogger?
And it seems every couple months someone shows up, and posts a comment about the woeful state of Textpattern. Maybe we can start another forum for people to vent and bitch in?
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
billdale—
First off, manual or no, open source is not a welfare program. It’s really about “put up or shut up”. See Zem’s comment above. You can contribute or you can take what you get but you can’t take and bitch. You can whine, if you want. Sometimes that’s tolerated but you gotta watch your tone. If you sound like a little kitty, sometimes that’s ok. But if someone just got scratched by a cat, probably not ok.
Textpattern doesn’t really try to do it all for you. Neither does the community. You have to get to know it and them. Plain and simple you really just have to climb inside of TXP to use it. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. TXP is not trying to be like everything else out there. That’s what I like about it and the community. I think TXP’s internal philosophy is reflected by the community. It’s not a package wrapped up to do a certain thing. It’s a TOOL, not really a software package, IMO.
From my perspective TXP is a tool that allows you to highly customize your web presence, whatever that might be. Because of that and because of continual and constant development taking place I don’t think there’s ever going to be a “be all and end all” manual as to how to use TXP. But here is a ton of documentation out there. I found it. I have a stack of it on my desk a foot or so high.
Think of TXP as a hammer and a saw and drill. Where should Destry and the rest of the gang start? Do you already have blueprints? Do you have your materials? What kinds of materials are they? Plastic requires a different saw blade than metal or wood. What are you going to build? Get my drift? TXP doesn’t decide whether you’re building a shed, a dollhouse, a condo, an office building or a theatre. No “out of the box” thinking here, not really, that part’s up to you. I think TXP is a web artist’s tool, myself. What’s a web artist? That’s a whole nuther story but its not the same as a graphic designer.
Seriously, I think the TEXTBOOK is more complete than not really when you think of it in terms of manuals that might accompany one of those kits of tools you buy at Home Depot. Here’s how to change the drill bit. Here’s how to replace a saw blade. Those manuals don’t show you how to build a house or even what the cut looks like, what kind of blade you might need or the size of the drill bit. And for sure they don’t know what went wrong when you tryed to use the saw to drill a hole.
It might come off snobbish but I’m not sure TXP is “for the masses”, leastwise not yet and not for those who stumble in unwilling to look for their own answers. I know I’ve spent many many hours reading and experimenting and I have stacks of printouts from the forum as well as tutorials and plugin sheets. All the documention is here. You can organize it if you want. I would LOVE that!
FWIW, most of my learning about TXP has really been an unlearning. Unlearning how all those other crappy CMSes “do it” and not asking TXP to do it the same way. Unlearning the table and font tag way, unlearning hierachical classification schemes. Even after a few months with TXP I’m still trying to get my dense head completely around some of the ways TXP does things but I know that nearly every question I’ve ever had has been answered in the forums. And finding those answers has been a highly enjoyable pursuit. Give yourself some time and a chance to get to know folks around here. I’ve found everyone very helpful and friendly and SMART!
Last edited by neutrino (2005-10-28 20:31:44)
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
> zem wrote:
> People don’t contribute to open source projects to Stick It To The Man
They don’t? I must be in the wrong place, then. :)
Last edited by michaelkpate (2005-10-28 20:35:11)
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#21 2005-10-29 00:22:03
- billdale
- New Member
- Registered: 2005-08-31
- Posts: 3
Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
Executive summary ; ):
A) All responses still appreciated; and
B) Do you think the message on Textpattern’s home page ought to be changed?
These, to me, are the two main things related to (all of) the above. This is the first thing that page communicates:
“What Is It?
A free, flexible, elegant, easy-to-use content management system for all kinds of websites, even weblogs.”
The second comes from a little further down the same page:
“Multiple Contributors
Sites published with Textpattern can employ unlimited registered contributors, each of whom may be assigned privileges by the publisher of the site.”
In reality, should Textpattern be viewed primarily as content management system or a personal web site development and management tool?
Are you – are many other members of the Textpattern community – using it as a content management system that is used by multiple (not necessarily technically savvy) contributors?
If so, how has it worked for you and how easy have the contributors found it to use?
For one limited example of the kind of thing fueling my interest in Textpattern, in my community, Erika runs a non-profit dedicated to helping business owners make business and practical “How to” sense of recycling as well as other “more sound” environmental practices. Cindi is the director of the local women’s rape and abuse crisis center. Erma and the people she works with focus on lowering the suicide rate among Native American teenagers (it’s three times higher than the national average for all teenagers). Fifty miles down the road to the southwest, Ms. Ray runs a rural arts outpost, and 50 miles to the southeast, Mary runs one of those “whole foods stores” (and, because they’ve been stopping in frequently for years, she’s plugged in with a couple hundred other people in the neighborhood who don’t make a lot of money but are busy living those “more organic” and “artistic” lives and have a lot to offer).
That’s just a small sampling, but some of the main things they have in common is they’re dynamic, interesting, dedictated people who are all working in the non-profit or “more holistic lifestyle” or “arts” world. Without going into the details, a web site with a focus on those sorts of things probably wouldn’t hurt their efforts or the community, all of those people (and many more) would have no trouble contributing content, and an inexpensive, flexible, elegant, easy-to-use content management system could really come in handy in that process.
What do you think? Would it work? Could they handle it with relatively “easy to use” ease? Or is Textpattern (and whatever documentation they’d need to do that, of course), not quite there yet?
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#22 2005-10-29 01:56:44
- Mary
- Sock Enthusiast
- Registered: 2004-06-27
- Posts: 6,236
Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
ubernostrum
> “But I do remember that once upon a time Remillard’s ‘TXP 101’ was a great little series of articles that did a lot to help new folks learn their way around Textpattern. That’s really what I was thinking of with the ‘clueless n00b’ documentation.”
Indeed, which is why I wanted to do (or someone should do) video tutorials. Like many people, I learn best from being shown, then doing it myself. Video tutorials are great for quite a lot of things because its just like the teacher is right there with you, showing you how it works. Then you can hit pause and try it yourself, hit rewind or continue on. Making a written equivalent takes a whole lot more time and planning, and also reduces the possibility that it will even be read.
Michael
> “They don’t? I must be in the wrong place, then. :)”
You troublemaker. ;)
billdale
Have you read the documentation available on user groups and permissions? If you pop over to your site admin tab, you’ll notice you can create new users and assign them to a group. There is help popups that explain how they work. Try it out. Create a new user and then login to see what it is that they see when they log in.
I’ve also included more info on this here (under “Admin-side Specific”), but its staying in that thread because its only really helpful to developers. But, the user permissions are far from complete, they are still being worked on an refined (like making them customizable, and so on).
To anyone that cares
Textpattern is absurdly easy to use for writers, that’s no lie or exaggeration. The problem is that people are assuming the web development part should be easy for those with no experience, but it isn’t, regardless of the cms you use. For the web developer, Textpattern’s forms and pages are also absurdly easy to use.
My mom has a blog. She knows a thing or two about databases and networking. Web development, on the other hand, she’s not too experienced with, never blogged before in her life. I told her about blogging and she started with Blogger. Then a couple months later, I set her up with Textpattern, and she just writes. I didn’t have to teach her, I just pointed her at it, and away she goes, no training, and she finds it easier than Blogger.
Should Txp.com’s text be updated? Likely some info should be stated to make what I’ve said more obvious. But I don’t have control over that. I don’t even know who does, might be just Dean, I don’t have a clue.
For me personally, its frustrating. It isn’t because those in the know don’t realize we need “entry level” tutorials or walkthroughs, its simply a lack of time and or tools. That doesn’t mean we aren’t still actively trying to find a solution. We know it, we’re working on it, what else can we do? I’m not about to start stalking or hounding people to find out who could be doing this or that (I’m not suggesting anyone is saying I should), I can just hope someone will volunteer or lend a hand. As I said, tell us what you can do to help or make a helpful suggestion (like, for example, a Tag Examples forum…). I don’t believe anyone has volunteered and someone said, “No, get lost.”
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Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
mary wrote:
Textpattern is absurdly easy to use for writers, that’s no lie or exaggeration.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree. Big time. It’s not absurdly hard to use, or worse than other softwares (and in several/a lot of cases, it’s easier) but not it’s not <q>absurdly easy to use for writers</q>.
But that’s a topic for another thread.
As I said, tell us what you can do to help or make a helpful suggestion (like, for example, a Tag Examples forum…). I don’t believe anyone has volunteered and someone said, “No, get lost.”
Look at Davidm about the french Textpattern website. Look for the no tabindex comment patch. And others, and others. Ok, it’s not a “get lost”, but it’s still done and send do null afterwards… There are issues on the other end too.
Last edited by Jeremie (2005-10-29 02:57:01)
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#24 2005-10-29 09:09:47
- davidm
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- From: Paris, France
- Registered: 2004-04-27
- Posts: 719
Re: [wiki] Documentation: "Clearly beneficial to many users"
ubernostrum wrote: It’s a tough issue. A lot of Textpattern’s “early adopters”, as most early adopters of this sort of software are, were people who either designed and built websites professionally or as a serious hobby, and could be expected to be fairly knowledgeable and figure a lot of things out on their own or to read what little documentation existed and make sense of it…
We’re exatctly on the same page here :-)
ubernostrum wrote: ….. A lot of this could be helped by a section in the wiki that just says “I’m new and don’t know anything about Textpattern, HTML or CSS, how do I do this?” And I’m as guilty as anyone for the absence of such a section, because I’ve had an account on the wiki forever and I’ve only ever contributed a couple things to it, most of which are almost certainly out of date by now. So… new TextBook section for “clueless n00bs”, maybe? If we could get a couple of wiki authors together to write it, it could probably be done in a weekend or so. Who’s in?
I have been also thinking along those lines a lot lately… starting from the users’ needs is certainly more appealing than a purely technical doc. Like someone said (on this thread or one the other one mentionned above), the officialness of the doc has put off a lot of would be writers. It takes a lot of effort to write structured yet understandable and “not-to-dry” documentation.
@Jeremie : Yeah well about the french forums we have a forum category, at least. Nothing prevents me to go my own way, I think that’s what germans did. I asked Dean how he saw things about french support website, he asked me to wait a little, that this effort would be best integrated into the official textpattern.com. As zem said, contribute, do things : I am and will, but at some point the french community will need a real forum, with categories. I am confident this day will come, as more and more french people come to us :-) Then we’ll see how to go about it….
One thing would be nice right now, and not to hard to set up is a localized textpattern.com page. As I wrote Dean, this would be nice. Plus it’s already done translating, in french for the moment but if a call to spanish, germans and others was launched, this is just a page I am convinced people are willing and able to do it. Maybe they also mailed Dean about this, I don’t know…
Last edited by davidm (2005-10-29 09:50:06)
.: Retired :.
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