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#21 2011-06-30 07:01:31

jakob
Moderator
From: Germany
Registered: 2005-01-20
Posts: 1,899
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Re: Facebook and I

Actually Jukka, you for me are a prime example of “ours”. You’ve been generous and selfless in writing plugins that are in many cases truly useful. I don’t think the devs can be expected to take on all aspects, or can be expected to be experts in all areas. For some it’s just natural to be enthusiastic and want to promote it but not to be expected.

Getting back to the point: is there a reason why the txp FB page can’t be made publicly viewable? I realise that only FB-members can take part in discussions. The other thing to consider is not to spread the available capacity of the members too thinly – or else in the end everything gets watered down.


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#22 2011-06-30 07:42:48

Gocom
Developer
Registered: 2006-07-14
Posts: 4,476
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Re: Facebook and I

jakob wrote:

Actually Jukka, you for me are a prime example of “ours”. You’ve been generous and selfless in writing plugins that are in many cases truly useful.

Heh, thanks. Sure, our plugins are our personal commitment towards Textpattern, hopefully making the CMS more useful. As far as generousness goes, I don’t consider myself generous. I’m at the low-bar, and I should do better. It’s like me throwing a shit at the crowd.

I don’t think the devs can be expected to take on all aspects, or can be expected to be experts in all areas. For some it’s just natural to be enthusiastic and want to promote it but not to be expected.

As a plugin author, and as a full-time dev, I think differently. My comments actually come from the criticism, the pride and the expectation I have directed to myself, which then reflect to my opinions of other projects.

I expect that I provide support for my plugins and the best quality products, no matter what the license is. Personally I also would like that other open source projects, including Textpattern, do the same, no matter what the background of the project is. If you are doing a free project, you do it as good as you can — like you would do a commercial product. You should always drive to be the best, take everything on. The maintainer shouldn’t expect anything from anyone else. Donations and all are fun, but one shouldn’t expect anything.

I don’t expect or require anything from Textpattern or the devs. In my opinion they can do what they consider is best for the project. That’s the sole right the maintainer should have. You do what you do. If you don’t have PR then you don’t have PR. Like for example I don’t have PR and I do not expect anyone else to do it for me. I’m grateful if someone does, but I do not expect it.

Becoming maintainer of an open source project doesn’t give one (like me) a free ticket to heaven, neither it gives one (like me) automatic rights to leave the project unsupported when ever one likes. It’s commitment. You may not always like it, but you still have to do it.

Last edited by Gocom (2011-06-30 07:48:06)


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#23 2011-06-30 09:24:01

datorhaexa
Member
From: Düsseldorf, Germany
Registered: 2005-05-23
Posts: 106
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Re: Facebook and I

colak wrote:
I agree and I also am fully aware of the marketing value of FB. In that sense I believe that a txp presence is social networking sites is the right thing to do. I just hoped that there was a way for the content to be viewed by non members.

That’s my gripe, as well. One can not even read.
Which reminds me that at Diaspora the only two TXP-tagged people I find is Els and my humble self, although one can actually read without the need to register

As for marketing and devs.. Most devs I know are not the go-public-and-rant type, so I personally would not expect them to do it. I feel that for those of us who have used Txp through the years and are feeling at home with this system, and have a more social inclination, the attempt to make Txp will be a natural drive. Just as natural as thinking in code for others is.

Last edited by datorhaexa (2011-06-30 13:58:00)

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#24 2011-06-30 13:26:38

michaelkpate
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From: Avon Park, FL
Registered: 2004-02-24
Posts: 539
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Re: Facebook and I

We have met the enemy and he is us. – Pogo

What is the most important point in this quote?

Textpattern, now in the hands of a small team of community members is not dead. It does, however, appear to be in something of a coma. The most recent release – a mere double-dot release – was 7 months ago. – Drew McClellan

For me, it is “community members.” We are all “community members” whether we are developers or not. Some people write code. Other create plugins or templates or documenation or whatever. And some people just lurk. For me, there was a mighty long time between this post and that one. Even though I would come back and peruse the board from time to time, there just didn’t seem to be much happening.

But these days we have new releases and facebook groups and meet-ups and 5.0 – it is much more exciting to be around. And when it comes to marketing,

The core developers aren’t any different to anyone else on the forum in that respect. – Zem

To quote some guys from Liverpool…

We’re doing what we can

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#25 2011-06-30 16:12:48

hcgtv
Member
From: Charlotte, NC
Registered: 2005-11-29
Posts: 2,154
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Re: Facebook and I

wet wrote:

Why? When was visibility abandonded being a marketing figure and turned into a technical aspect?

Jukka expressed my feelings in his reply.

Robert, I don’t think anybody is asking you to start hopping planes and attending conventions. But you’ve got to acknowledge the fact that Textpattern is shrinking. When sites like TXPMag, TXPQ and We Love TXP stop publishing, there is a problem. When prominent plugin writers like Rob Sable get disillusioned, you have a problem. I’d link to the recent fork, but you’ve got that covered.

Back in 2005, when I started following Textpattern, there was an exodus of top level people. I can’t find the forum thread, but the issues brought up then still exist to this day. The pep talks from davidm back then are now done by Destry, but it’s the same long forum threads and nothing really happens.

Robert, if you honestly want to grow Textpattern, open it up to others and I don’t mean just coders. Why have closed IRC meetings? How are you going to take over We Love TXP, when projects like the revamp of the resources site is hard to accomplish because of time constraints? This forum is an excellent example of inaction, the devs don’t have the time to deal with it, then find someone to take over the forum conversion.

Textpattern is not dead, but give it another year of doing the same old thing, and it will take the same amount of effort to raise it back up, than it will be to take the code and promote it under another name. I don’t believe the code behind this project will ever die, it’s just getting to the point where the protection of the name is getting in the way of it’s growth.

Gocom wrote:

If you are doing a free project, you do it as good as you can — like you would do a commercial product.

Yes, I agree.


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#26 2011-06-30 16:27:12

Destry
Moderator
From: Strasbourg, France
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 2,361
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Re: Facebook and I

Everybody is saying smart things here. It’s really nice to see.

I agree with Jukka in his outlook about where devs play a role. No matter how much they might hate it, they are captains of this ship, and thus have leadership responsibilities as such. But that doesn’t mean they have to do the PR work, it just means they are responsible for seeing that it gets done. I think that’s where things get misconstrued in all of this. If they don’t (or can’t because of time) want to do PR, they still need to find someone who can, and stand behind that person’s efforts as an arm in the rightful cause of Txp.

The mistake that has happened through most of Txp’s history, and this is where I sympathize with Jukka, is devs have never allocated the role to somebody; they’ve just kind of expected it to happen by the love of Txp alone, or whatever. Cast the bones and throw salt over the left shoulder. I’m sorry, but that’s not a strategy, and I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but look at where Txp is today. Not very far compared to other projects that have been around as long. And God/Goddess bless the devs, because they do damn good work, but Textpattern is a Bugatti that car collectors don’t know exist. That is clearly a problem with PR.

I’d like to think we’ve come to a point in this conversation that we all agree there is a problem. Reflecting on the past to find reasons for where we are now is only so good that it does inspire change. Let’s not put anybody on the hot seat of blame, rather let’s decide what this project really wants to be in relation to all the other projects in the world and make a real plan for it. Not a plan of wishing upon a shooting star, but a real plan. A strategy! Ask yourselves, where do you see Textpattern in 5 years? If it’s somewhere more than here, make it happen, don’t just expect it to happen or 5 years may never come. Leadership must accept they are leaders, and get organized. Period.

I will always use Textpattern as long as it’s actively worked on by people I trust. Even if it means it’s down to me and one core developer. And I trust Robert and Stef and the others currently at the core. But time is more finite for this community if it keeps on the way it’s been. I would bet on it. (Who’s taking odds on the 5-year mark?)

Btw, I’ve been getting the sense that TXP 5 really is setting a brand standard for using “TXP“—not Txp or TxP or whatever. As point of example in all this PR stuff, I would recommend that it’s made clear what the desired usage is so that this community can start using it correctly. The sooner the better. This is work in progress.

And this is where you can propose changes

Last edited by Destry (2011-06-30 16:30:01)

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