[wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

els · 2009-10-04 12:53:38

jsoo wrote:

Is there any benefit to having a tutorials category that I am missing?

Yes, categorization for instance ;) and automatic update of the tutorials index. The page Nora referred to is an example of a manually maintained index. It may look slightly better, but it’s yet another page to watch and maintain. The old ‘Alphabetical Tag Index’ was another example of such a page. You probably didn’t read every topic in this forum (wouldn’t expect you to ;) ), but Destry has done a lot of work in restructuring Textbook, with as main goals making it as easy as possible to (1) find information, and (2) contribute and maintain. In either respect, categories are an important tool.

I think we should keep in mind a couple of things:

The structure Destry has implemented makes a lot of sense; it also intends to make an optimal use of a wiki’s properties and features. There is absolutely no reason to diverge from the direction he laid out.
Layout is subordinate to structure (it’s a wiki!)

So in my opinion we should never want to try and bend the structure to fit the layout. We can try and do something with the CSS, but if we can’t, too bad.

Personally, though I can see your point about the visual aspects of the three column layout, it doesn’t bother me very much either.

jsoo · 2009-10-04 13:15:48

Els wrote:

Layout is subordinate to structure (it’s a wiki!)

Yes, but in the case of the Tutorials page, the layout is killing usability.

Category page layout is working well for the Tag Reference (main category and sub-categories). Titles are short (tag names), so that they work well in the three-column layout, and organizing tag pages alphabetically makes perfect sense.

I don’t see any other TextBook category page that fits well with that layout. Are there any?

els · 2009-10-04 13:43:29

jsoo wrote:

Yes, but in the case of the Tutorials page, the layout is killing usability.

I don’t see it that way. It may not be very useful, though reading through the alphabetical list can give users a clue where to look as well, it’s certainly not working against usability.

We can make it clear on that category page that the Subcategories index is the most important one. If we put it in a <div class="notes"> it will stand out sufficiently.

Or maybe – considering the alphabetical pages index is there and we can’t remove it – would it be an idea to try and apply Uli’s find there as well? For instance put ‘Combat Comment Spam’ under ‘S’ for ‘Spam’. Or ‘C’ for ‘Comments’… Oh oh, there we go… maybe not such a good idea after all.

els · 2009-10-04 14:03:34

I wrote:

…the Subcategories index is the most important one.

I am convinced we can create perfectly clear index pages by making optimal use of subcategories. It doesn’t stop at one level, you know. Subcategories can have subcategories of their own. Pages can be in more than one subcategory. Etcetera. It just requires a little bit of research when submitting a new page: how can it be categorized?

If we manage to organize pages properly this way, the fact that there also happens to be an alphabetical list of pages on every category page won’t be an obstacle at all.

jsoo · 2009-10-04 14:05:33

Els wrote:

It may not be very useful, though reading through the alphabetical list can give users a clue where to look as well, it’s certainly not working against usability.

I don’t understand the distinction: not very useful, yet usable?

At any rate, I realize that structural changes are off the table at the moment.

jsoo · 2009-10-04 14:19:57

Comparing to the Tag Reference again, I note the “mininav”, which I take to be a MW “form”. Is creating new forms for admins only? I think it would be useful to have a Tutorials mininav.

els · 2009-10-04 16:08:59

jsoo wrote:

I don’t understand the distinction: not very useful, yet usable?

Sorry, must be my English. I’ll try again.

If the alphabetical pages list was the only index, it wouldn’t be very useful. If the only way to find a tutorial was to read through the entire list, it would be no more than ‘better than nothing’.
But as an addition to the subcategories index, I don’t see how it would negatively influence the usability of the category page.

Comparing to the Tag Reference again, I note the “mininav”, which I take to be a MW “form”. Is creating new forms for admins only? I think it would be useful to have a Tutorials mininav.

It’s a ‘template’, in mediawiki terminology, indeed similar to a Txp ‘form’. I’ll have a look at who can create them and how.

jsoo · 2009-10-04 16:21:30

Els wrote:

If the alphabetical pages list was the only index, it wouldn’t be very useful. If the only way to find a tutorial was to read through the entire list, it would be no more than ‘better than nothing’.
But as an addition to the subcategories index, I don’t see how it would negatively influence the usability of the category page.

OK, thanks for the clarification — certainly not any problem with your English, just a disagreement we have as to usability. But we do agree that the sub-category list has been a big improvement.

els · 2009-10-04 17:45:53

Jeff, for creating a new template, see here. Use the ‘Mininav tags’ template as an example.
I’m not sure if only admins or all users can do that, if you find that you can’t, please let me know what you want in the template and I’ll create it for you.

just a disagreement we have as to usability.

I’m not sure about that, I may be misunderstanding you. My most important point is that not making use of wiki categories for index pages would be like handcoding the navigation on a Txp site. And I – personally – don’t mind very much that the layout of those pages is far from ideal. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want to keep looking for ways to influence that layout. I’ve already been looking if maybe a setting exists that lets you determine if you want to present the lists in one, two or three columns. At first sight there doesn’t seem to be one, but – though it will take some time to explore the software more thoroughly – I’ll have another go at it some other time.

Here’s an idea for now, let me know what you think: what if we just remove [[category:Tutorials]] from all tutorial pages? The ‘Tutorials’ category page will then only list the subcategories. The subcategory pages will contain a much shorter list of pages. And for better readability we could (1) change the layout using CSS and (2) where possible shorten the titles.

jsoo · 2009-10-04 18:40:05

Els wrote:

Jeff, for creating a new template, see here. Use the ‘Mininav tags’ template as an example.
I’m not sure if only admins or all users can do that, if you find that you can’t, please let me know what you want in the template and I’ll create it for you.

Thanks Els, that is the clue I was seeking. So my idea is to add a mini-nav to some or all of the tutorials. What do you think?

Here’s an idea for now, let me know what you think: what if we just remove [[category:Tutorials]] from all tutorial pages? The ‘Tutorials’ category page will then only list the subcategories. The subcategory pages will contain a much shorter list of pages. And for better readability we could (1) change the layout using CSS and (2) where possible shorten the titles.

It makes sense for another reason also: it avoids the extra work and opportunity for error that comes from having to add the Tutorials category explicitly to articles—with your idea we just add the appropriate sub-category.

els · 2009-10-04 19:41:02

jsoo wrote:

So my idea is to add a mini-nav to some or all of the tutorials. What do you think?

Looks great :) and I think it really adds to the usability. (I only added it to that one page to see how it looked.)
Do you think it would be helpful if I create a ‘model tutorial page’, that contains something like this:

{{Mininav_tutorials}}

Your tutorial here...

<!-- Important links -- Keep at bottom! -->
<!-- Change 'A Category' into an appropriate existing category -->
[[category:A Category]]

and that can be copied for all new tutorials? I could add it here.

with your idea we just add the appropriate sub-category.

OK, so if you agree, we need to add the ‘Mininav tutorials’ template to, and remove the Tutorials category from the tutorial pages. Let me know where I can help!

Last edited by els (2009-10-04 19:43:44)

jsoo · 2009-10-04 19:56:14

Els wrote:

Do you think it would be helpful if I create a ‘model tutorial page’, that contains something like this:

Yes, and then we should include a link to it from the main category page, as there is on the main Tag Ref page.

OK, so if you agree, we need to add the ‘Mininav tutorials’ template to, and remove the Tutorials category from the tutorial pages. Let me know where I can help!

Please add the model tutorial page, and add the mininav to as many tutorials as you feel like getting to, and I’ll do likewise (with the mininav).

Edit: I’ll work in reverse alphabetical order through the tutorials.

Edit again: and remove the Tutorial category from articles.

One more time: I’ve added the mininav and removed the top-level category as discussed. On the sub-category pages, where there is very little content in the page itself, the mininav conflicts with the article list. Looks like a float/positioning conflict. Maybe the simplest solution is to come up with a paragraph or two for each sub-category page.

Last edited by jsoo (2009-10-04 20:25:51)

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#25 2009-10-04 12:53:38

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#26 2009-10-04 13:15:48

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#27 2009-10-04 13:43:29

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#28 2009-10-04 14:03:34

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#29 2009-10-04 14:05:33

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#30 2009-10-04 14:19:57

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#31 2009-10-04 16:08:59

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#32 2009-10-04 16:21:30

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#33 2009-10-04 17:45:53

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#34 2009-10-04 18:40:05

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#35 2009-10-04 19:41:02

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

#36 2009-10-04 19:56:14

Re: [wiki] Tutorials page: layout & scope

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