[feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

hcgtv · 2006-03-01 22:27:36

Just to follow up on TortoiseSVN, I finally got it to stop crashing!

I use PowerDesk for my file manager and having it installed seems to affect Explorer also.

Anyway, I found this post and followed the instructions and TortoiseSVN is not crashing on me anymore.

Maybe it can help others having problems with the Turtle ;)

Logoleptic · 2006-03-07 18:51:52

tranquillo wrote:

The elements will give the possibility to add modules to txp (more individual features!!!!).
With this, developers (in groups or one by one) can help the core team develop txp by coding modules (no need to increase the number of the core devs). The core team can stay as it is and keep developing the core. Plugins will consist of one file to install, larger plugins will become elements (a subject from the mailinglist).

I feel a bit out of touch, since this is actually the first I’ve heard of this. Sounds awesome! With this kind of extensibility, I think we’ll see an incredible burst of creativity around the release of 4.1.

davidm · 2006-03-07 18:58:10

Logoleptic wrote: I feel a bit out of touch, since this is actually the first I’ve heard of this. Sounds awesome! With this kind of extensibility, I think we’ll see an incredible burst of creativity around the release of 4.1.

I couldn’t agree more ! This is one of the key things that can keep me excited about txp’s future… I am eager to see what will come out of this in the long run…

Also, on a different note : I am very glad of the late changes (namely : Mary being back, forums getting some restructuring done…), even if I am no longer contributing, I have an eye on things :)

Last edited by davidm (2006-03-07 18:59:05)

Logoleptic · 2006-03-07 19:29:52

I’ve been reading this thread over my lunch hour, but now it’s time to get back to work. I only made it to page 5, so I apologize if my suggestions are repetitive of what’s been said since then.

Patch Queue, Bug Tracking, and Feature Voting

Implementation of a bug tracking system, including commenting on bugs, feature requests, and bug/feature voting. I’m not particularly fond of Trac, though it’s very popular. From a bug-reporter’s standpoint, I’ve always liked Mantis. It was used for the Movable Type 3 beta and was once the bug tracking software for WordPress.

Whatever software is chosen, a good bug tracking system would allow for patch submission and for organized and democratic selection of new features.

Road Map

This is crucial, if only because the presence of a road map inspires confidence in users and provides direction to devs. I don’t think it’s possible until a bug tracking / feature request / voting system is in place, however.

Leadership

The success of open-source projects like Python, Linux, and WordPress have repeatedly shown that open-source software development can consistently meet or exceed the standards of commercial software under the guidance of a benevolent dictator (see also). Having such a person in charge of Textpattern could help move things forward on multiple fronts with considerable speed. This is, in a way, the role that Dean used to fill. Under Dean the benevolent dictator model was never fully realized, however, due to the long history of Txp as a one-developer project before it was open-sourced.

There are examples of successful open-source projects that shun the benevolent dictator model. One notable example is the K Desktop Environment, which vehemently refuses such a leadership scheme. In my personal opinion, however, such projects are prone to scattershot development and featuritis. On the other hand, keeping the official dev team relatively small could prevent those problems.

Ultimately, I think the most important thing is for Textpattern to decide on a leadership / organizational model and run with it. That alone would go a long way toward curbing the “nobody’s in charge” anxiety that seems to have prompted this thread.

Last edited by Logoleptic (2006-03-07 19:33:32)

davidm · 2006-03-07 21:05:34

Ultimately, I think the most important thing is for Textpattern to decide on a leadership / organizational model and run with it. That alone would go a long way toward curbing the “nobody’s in charge” anxiety that seems to have prompted this thread.

My thought exactly :)

That’s the whole point of this thread and why Alex, Nils and myself tried to clear things a little bit…

Hans · 2006-03-08 00:58:17

This article/editorial might be of interest to the lot of you.

hcgtv · 2006-03-08 02:51:59

Hans wrote:

This article/editorial might be of interest to the lot of you.

“There are two ways of constructing a software design; one way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.”
C. A. R. Hoare

raveoli · 2006-03-10 09:48:08

Dean was needed in Textpattern’s childhood. He was the daddy. Now, Textpattern is a grown up late-teen, wanting to go lots of places, and being a bit confused. That said, I think people have become too attached to the idea of NEW NEW NEW. That is, new updates, new features, lalala. Textpattern does what it should do pretty well. Of course certain things are still musthave-features to come, but generally Textpattern is stable, wonderful, flexible.

jtlapp · 2006-03-23 07:42:21

My two pence on TXP’s future:

My experience with TXP blogs has always been, “Wow that’s professional!” I typically imagine that the blog owner has a strong sense of aesthetics — cares about the user experience — and may even have dished out some cash for so artistic and friendly a site.

My experience with WordPress blogs has always been, “Oh they’re using that uninspired template.” I’m glad that average users can quickly find a voice online, but I find myself surprised when the site purports to be a serious, professional business.

So I think it’s misguided to attempt to strive with TXP for the popularity or success of WP. Striving that way would only push TXP into the business of running mundane blogs and obliterate the professional impression of TXP that I’ve developed and that I assume others have as well.

I think TXP should focus on the audience it now attracts: web designers. Not end users. TXP can survive and prosper and even own that segment, but only if it doesn’t lose sight of it.

So in asking how do we improve TXP, I think we need to ask how do we make it better for web designers. Or rather, we need to be pro-active about keeping it in tune with web designer’s evolving needs.

(And BTW, in my opinion, bBlog is the blog for hardcore PHP/OO programmers. In my opinion it has the most foresighted architecture. But it seems that there are too few PHP/OO programmers to support it. WordPress has the biggest market: end users. TXP has a smaller but still large market too: web designers. But poor bBlog: hardly a PHP programmer understands or appreciates OO.)

~joe

raveoli · 2006-03-23 13:27:39

JTLAPP >

WORD UP. So much word up from here. Well thought and said.

Logoleptic · 2006-03-23 17:57:45

jtlapp wrote:

My experience with WordPress blogs has always been, “Oh they’re using that uninspired template.”

Kubrick (the default WP theme) has become the scourge¹ of weblog design. I rather like that Txp starts you out with a clean slate, encouraging you to use your creativity to come up with something fresh and new.

<blockquote>
<p>So I think it’s misguided to attempt to strive with TXP for the popularity or success of WP. Striving that way would only push TXP into the business of running mundane blogs and obliterate the professional impression of TXP that I’ve developed and that I assume others have as well.</p>
<p>I think TXP should focus on the audience it now attracts: web designers. Not end users. TXP can survive and prosper and even own that segment, but only if it doesn’t lose sight of it.</p>
</blockquote>

I’ve always felt like Textpattern’s real peer/competition was ExpressionEngine. EE has similar flexibility and the same appeal to professionals. It suffers from severe feature-bloat and a mediocre admin interface, however. Textpattern’s lean-and-mean combination of power and elegance position it well to take the lead over from EE, but first we need an improved back-end UI and better extensibility.

I understand that the extensibility is in the works in crockery, but a revamped admin interface seems to be in limbo. That’s a shame, since the current one is not only dated but has terrible accessibility. I just built a site for a non-profit that’s run by a blind man. I picked Txp because it was the best tool for the job, but he has trouble using it because his screen-reader just calls out table cell after table cell to him. Now I’m stuck with doing site updates.

Anyway, regarding EE vs. Txp vs. WP I think the Godbit Project said it best:

What WordPress is to blogging, I’d dare say Textpattern is to multi-sectioned sites. This is the system I use to run my own personal site, and it is also what drives Godbit. What it may lack in the social web aspects, it more than makes up for in the intuitiveness with which it allows you to organize a site. In that regard, as well as templating syntax, it is similar to larger systems like EE. If EE could be likened to a Tyrannosaurus rex, then TXP would be a Velociraptor.

Yeah, baby. ;-)

Regarding bBlog…

But poor bBlog: hardly a PHP programmer understands or appreciates OO.)

There hasn’t been much incentive for PHP programmers to really dig in to serious OOP. Only PHP 5 has decent OO support, and for some reason most web hosts still don’t support PHP 5. What’s up with that?

¹ Defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:

A source of widespread dreadful affliction and devastation such as that caused by pestilence or war.
A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
A whip used to inflict punishment.

Yup, that about sums it up. ;-)

Last edited by Logoleptic (2006-04-09 05:47:42)

jtlapp · 2006-03-24 01:14:00

Adam wrote:

I’ve always felt like Textpattern’s real peer/competition was ExpressionEngine.

Interesting that you say that. I’ve written thousands of lines of code extending EE. EE is extremely flexible and I might have opted to redo my site in EE if it weren’t for two problems:

EE is commercial, closed source, and my freely offered contributions to the core aren’t taken seriously.
EE now costs $250 if your site is even remotely for-profit, with updates at $40/year ($100/$20 otherwise).

I tried to move to bBlog because it has (and is getting more) highly modular architecture. But bBlog doesn’t have a large enough audience to support it. It’s greatest asset is just it’s modular vision. EE likewise strives for modularity but is too hand-tied by backwards compatibility to achieve it; besides EE’s developers have little experience with OO (my code seemed a bit of a mystery to them).

Textpattern CMS

Textpattern CMS support forum

#217 2006-03-01 22:27:36

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#218 2006-03-07 18:51:52

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#219 2006-03-07 18:58:10

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#220 2006-03-07 19:29:52

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#221 2006-03-07 21:05:34

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#222 2006-03-08 00:58:17

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#223 2006-03-08 02:51:59

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#224 2006-03-10 09:48:08

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#225 2006-03-23 07:42:21

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#226 2006-03-23 13:27:39

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#227 2006-03-23 17:57:45

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

#228 2006-03-24 01:14:00

Re: [feedback] How to bring txp back on track ? Let's debate !

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